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Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 13 May 2009, in the House of Commons.

Finance Bill

Finance Bill. Committee stage second day. (Clauses Nos 7, 8, 9, 11, 92, 14, 16 and 20). Clause 92 agreed to, with an amendment negatived on division (154 votes to 285). Clause 14 agreed to. Amendments 13, 5 and 11 to clause 16 negatived on division (15 votes to 310, 59 votes to 301 and 134 votes to 346). Clause 20 agreed to, with Amendments 14 and 15 negatived on division (77 votes to 278 and 75 votes to 282). These clauses reported without amendment.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
492 c863-986 
Session
2008-09
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Finance Bill. In two volumes, with explanatory notes.
Thursday, 30 April 2009
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Stewart Hosie | 492 c980 (Link to this contribution) We are pleased with the debate. The hon. Member for Barnsley, Central (Mr. Illsley) is a champion fo...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c971-3 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 9 is in my name and that of my colleagues. The case for amendment 14 has been put very eff...
Show all contributions (318)
Angela Eagle | 492 c975 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Liberal Democrats support the Conservative amendment, which would delay the rem...
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c976 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to note that the Minister is proposing that, although we have not yet got there and I...
Kelvin Hopkins | 492 c976-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief. I did not intend to speak, but I heard so many interesting and fine speeches on th...
Angela Eagle | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) I was saying that some who have contributed to tonight's debate have acknowledged that the Governmen...
Greg Hands | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the Minister's argument. Presumably she is saying that the effective rate has ...
Greg Hands | 492 c979 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister again for giving way. In the Westminster Hall debate in February—that was the l...
Angela Eagle | 492 c979-80 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman thinks that. Budgets are an opportunity to examine tax ra...
Angela Eagle | 492 c979 (Link to this contribution) I was responding to the questions that I was asked by the hon. Member for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr...
David Gauke | 492 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) The distinction is very clear. The majority of the cost of fuel is a duty of tax, but the same does ...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c915-6 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I look forward to the fair alcohol stabiliser that the Conservatives will no doubt int...
David Gauke | 492 c914 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that intervention and I am sure that my hon. Friend speaks not only for himse...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c914 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael, for giving me the opportunity to speak on this group of amendments. I echo t...
Robert Syms | 492 c914 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend should take the lack of support as a sign of confidence in his ability to command the...
David Gauke | 492 c913 (Link to this contribution) I think that we should infer that this is an issue on which many Liberal Democrats will be sending o...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c913 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Liberal Democrat Benches are filling up because this is an iss...
David Gauke | 492 c913 (Link to this contribution) We will turn to the issue of remote areas in the next debate, and I see that the Liberal Democrat Be...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c913 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not touched on the differential in price in remote areas. How would his stabi...
David Gauke | 492 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I agree that there needs to be flexibility on the baseline an...
Robert Smith | 492 c912 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman is identifying is the fact that fuel duty is a very crude method of sending ...
David Gauke | 492 c912 (Link to this contribution) I note the hon. Gentleman's point, but I am focusing today on fuel duty. I think we can address that...
Angela Eagle | 492 c912 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is talking about smoothing out bumps, which I am always in favour of doing, espec...
David Gauke | 492 c912 (Link to this contribution) The Exchequer Secretary makes a good point; one of things that we have asked in our consultation is ...
David Gauke | 492 c911 (Link to this contribution) We have a dispute, but I think it was 2000. We also know that in the summer of 2008 there was a grea...
David Gauke | 492 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) I will not give precise figures, as we are consulting on this. The principle the hon. Gentleman puts...
Alan Reid | 492 c911 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman well knows, the price of fuel was considerably lower at the time of this year'...
David Gauke | 492 c910-1 (Link to this contribution) We want to reduce the tax burden on good things and we would pay for that by increasing the tax burd...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c910 (Link to this contribution) I have said four or five times that this is about stability, certainty and smoothing out the unexpec...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c909 (Link to this contribution) I would leave the statutory instrument to decide that. As I have said, if the SI were to opt for a t...
David Gauke | 492 c910 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie), who rightly set out the...
Angela Eagle | 492 c910 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Conservative party still supports the idea that that increase in money from gre...
Alan Reid | 492 c909 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to a two-way regulator, but although his proposed subsection (1AB) in amen...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) I left that open-ended and simply referred to a statutory instrument because I wanted the provision ...
Alan Reid | 492 c908 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has hit on a problem and proposed a solution, but will he enlighten us on one poi...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c908 (Link to this contribution) It has. The price might not always come down in line with the price of fuel, but I must point out to...
Angela Eagle | 492 c905 (Link to this contribution) We try to bear the big picture in mind throughout the budgeting process. We do not consider vehicle ...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 13, page 10, line 24, at end insert—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 492 c906 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 11, page 10, line 40, at end add
Stewart Hosie | 492 c906-7 (Link to this contribution) The arguments that I want to present have been reprised over many years. Indeed, I have the Hansards...
Robert Smith | 492 c907 (Link to this contribution) On the crisis in the haulage sector, does the hon. Gentleman think that the Government's failure to ...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c908 (Link to this contribution) May I pick up the hon. Gentleman's point about hauliers? A number of them have introduced a fuel sur...
David Gauke | 492 c904 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the Exchequer Secretary; she has been very clear with the Committee, which w...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c905 (Link to this contribution) I shall take up the Exchequer Secretary's offer and her suggestion about others with whom I might ma...
Angela Eagle | 492 c904-5 (Link to this contribution) We may be able to discuss scrappage in more detail at another stage of the Bill. To answer the hon. ...
Alan Reid | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The Treasury has certainly used that argument in relation to...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) It has got better with RET and the SNP.
Alan Reid | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says, The Daily Telegraph clearly does not. That perhaps indicates that people bas...
Alan Reid | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is tempting me, but he knows perfectly well that the Scottish Government treat my...
Alan Reid | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) Royal Mail is also removing two post bus services in my constituency, on the islands of Colonsay and...
Dan Rogerson | 492 c928 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a strong case. As he has pointed out, a key element of the problem is that ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c926 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, in constituencies such as mine and his own, we pay more tax p...
Alan Reid | 492 c926-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that his constituents and mine pay more tax on our fue...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c922-3 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Michael. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) indeed chose ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman must remember that it is my task to decide whether hon. Members are allowe...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) If it was the hon. Gentleman's calculation, he should have known better. I am going to rush through ...
Robert Smith | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again; he is most kind. When I first raised this ...
Angela Eagle | 492 c919 (Link to this contribution) First, I will deal with the point about the so-called windfalls, which do not exist. Secondly, the h...
David Gauke | 492 c919 (Link to this contribution) May I read to the hon. Lady paragraph C.46 from the Red Book? It says:""The surge in oil prices up t...
Angela Eagle | 492 c919-20 (Link to this contribution) I will explain why that is not the case, and why the proposal will produce perverse results. When oi...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c920 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated by the process by which the Minister thinks that the baseline would be arrived at. I...
Angela Eagle | 492 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that Gazprom, or some of the more centralised old Soviet planners, might be able to take a...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c921 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in this point, because amendment 11 asks the Chancellor to undertake research. As th...
Angela Eagle | 492 c921-2 (Link to this contribution) Depending on how the so-called stabiliser was applied, those would clearly be important issues. I lo...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has spoken for some time. In her usual generous way, she explained the Government's pos...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) No. I am criticising his hon. Friend.
Alan Reid | 492 c922 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Jeremy Browne | 492 c916-7 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept the hon. Gentleman's point on the haulage industry and the costs added to other ...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c917 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mike Weir | 492 c916 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) made it clear that the object of the exer...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c917 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree with my observation that the moral of the story for Opposition parties is th...
Angela Eagle | 492 c917-8 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. When the press release looked good, it was generalis...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c917 (Link to this contribution) I am bringing my remarks to a conclusion. That would have a serious impact on motorists. It is only...
Angela Eagle | 492 c917 (Link to this contribution) We have had a most illuminating debate. I shall add to the questions that have been well put by the ...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c919 (Link to this contribution) How can the Government determining to spend some of the revenue yield have any impact whatever on fu...
Angela Eagle | 492 c918-9 (Link to this contribution) That is right. I dare say that even Nostradamus could not tell whether a spike was a spike or part o...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c918 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her brilliant lecture in free market economics, which I am sure wi...
David Gauke | 492 c932 (Link to this contribution) I can fully understand the hon. Gentleman's concern, and he is right to press this particular case. ...
David Gauke | 492 c932-3 (Link to this contribution) I would be surprised if the good people of Inverness were quite so easily offended—[Interruption.] I...
Danny Alexander | 492 c932 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman realise how offensive the comparison that he has just drawn is to my constit...
David Gauke | 492 c933 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that part of the routine of these occasions is for hon. Members to contact their local ...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c933 (Link to this contribution) I wish to assist the hon. Gentleman on the reaction that he may anticipate in tomorrow's papers. The...
David Gauke | 492 c931 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go back over the whole of the previous debate, but I do not accept the hon. Gentlem...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c931 (Link to this contribution) I am being provoked by the hon. Gentleman. Is there not a distinction between believing that it is n...
David Gauke | 492 c932 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is on to a very important practical point—which is also one of the potential diff...
David Drew | 492 c932 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have heard my earlier intervention. The problem in rural areas is that this ...
David Gauke | 492 c930-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) for tabling this amendment. Such dis...
Alan Reid | 492 c930 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right and I thank him for that intervention. The paper that my hon. Friend the...
David Drew | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a good point. Does he accept that one of the problems for those of us w...
David Gauke | 492 c931 (Link to this contribution) First, I seek the hon. Gentleman's forgiveness for failing to remember that he made an intervention ...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c931 (Link to this contribution) I was present for the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne); in fact, I...
David Gauke | 492 c931 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman. I am not sure whether he was present for the previous debate...
Alan Reid | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. At the moment, tourists are often put off returning to remo...
Robert Smith | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) If the amendment were passed, at least the tourists who travelled to that area would face the same c...
Alan Reid | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) The answer is zero. No one is going to take the ferry from Aberdeen to Orkney or Shetland to benefit...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c936 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not think it significant that every year, we hear Conservatives' accusations of ...
Danny Alexander | 492 c936 (Link to this contribution) Our proposal is not sketchy. It is well thought through and carefully analysed. Although I do not wa...
Danny Alexander | 492 c936 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), who e...
David Heath | 492 c935 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that is true, and I have observed what the hon. Gentleman has described in many parts...
Roger Williams | 492 c934 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a point that I was going to raise. Even when their incomes are low, familie...
David Heath | 492 c934 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak mainly so that I can demonstrate that this is not purely a Scottish issue, despite t...
David Heath | 492 c934-5 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. Another factor in the sort of areas that my hon. Friend and I represent is that income i...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c933 (Link to this contribution) May I help the hon. Gentleman by suggesting that one definition that could be considered would be "l...
David Gauke | 492 c934 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend points out, the whole country is surrounded by water. I think that I understand wh...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c933 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has misrepresented the situation. He said that Liberal Democrats thought that the...
David Gauke | 492 c933 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is quick to take offence. I am merely seeking to tease out some of the arguments ...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, let me give him a warning: his words will be taken down and...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c944 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman expects me to answer that, but let me say that I have always b...
David Gauke | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As I made clear in my initial remarks, hon. Memb...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c944 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman is really saying is: "Where there's a will, there's a way." It will be noted...
Mike Weir | 492 c941-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief. We on the Scottish national party Benches will support the amendment tonight, desp...
Danny Alexander | 492 c941 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that guidance, Mrs. Heal. The point that I was seeking to make in the context of t...
Danny Alexander | 492 c940 (Link to this contribution) There is just a political one, as my hon. Friend says. Indeed, I understand that UK Ministers suppor...
Danny Alexander | 492 c940 (Link to this contribution) It would therefore potentially increase tax revenue, too; that is quite right. It is worth saying th...
Danny Alexander | 492 c937-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, as that evidence reinforces my case. I could provide further ex...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c937 (Link to this contribution) On a point of information, I add that in Stornoway today, the price for a litre of petrol is £1.03, ...
Angela Eagle | 492 c951 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's paper has been much prayed in aid and I pay tribute to the work that he has don...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c951 (Link to this contribution) I accept the point that the Exchequer Secretary made—solving this problem is not without its difficu...
David Heath | 492 c950 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that the people who need petrol the most pay the most and can afford it least, whereas t...
Angela Eagle | 492 c949-50 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish my point. I have listened to what has been a long debate, and I would appreciate it if...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c947 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a very good case. People—certainly people in my constituency—recognise ...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c948-9 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mrs. Heal, for giving me an opportunity briefly to contribute to this debate, which is im...
Angela Eagle | 492 c949 (Link to this contribution) We have had a passionate debate, and it is right that I should begin by acknowledging the genuine is...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to correct the Chair, Mrs. Heal, but I think that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileana...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have allowed some debate on this point, but perhaps we could now get back to the content of...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that highly telling intervention. He was asked wha...
David Heath | 492 c953 (Link to this contribution) May I intervene before this becomes an entirely Scottish affair again? I must say that my constituen...
Alan Reid | 492 c953 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. The Conservative party certainly does not have much of a clue. I want...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c953 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity briefly to rebut the Minister's assertion that the designa...
Alan Reid | 492 c953-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite correct. I have the map that he produced in front of me and there are one or...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c954 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. Does he agree that any sketchiness in the debate came ...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c963 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 14, page 12, line 15, leave out subsection (2).
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) Was my hon. Friend as struck as I was by the fact that the Exchequer Secretary accepted that there w...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) The Minister and the team at the Exchequer are clever—we know that—but the wilful misunderstanding t...
Danny Alexander | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be less combative than my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Car...
Eric Illsley | 492 c969-70 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. There are other, harder, forms of gambling. There are no VAT payments on betting s...
Eric Illsley | 492 c968 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point. Bingo is played not only in licensed bingo clubs but in places u...
Brian Binley | 492 c968 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable on these matters and is a great supporter of bingo clubs, a...
Eric Illsley | 492 c968-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. I cannot answer his question; perhaps when t...
Eric Illsley | 492 c967-8 (Link to this contribution) We did have a meeting with the Prime Minister, but at the same time we had a meeting with the Chance...
Angela Eagle | 492 c965 (Link to this contribution) I can clarify the costings in the Red Book: they work from the law as it stands prior to the changes...
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c965 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred earlier to the Government's claim that there would be a £15 million bene...
Brian Binley | 492 c964-5 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is an iniquitous tax, being paid mostly by the elderly grand...
Mark Hoban | 492 c864 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but as we discussed in yesterday's debate on corporatio...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c864 (Link to this contribution) I accept that there must be consultation before the legislation is introduced, and that will be the ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 4, page 45, line 18, after 'after', insert 'the first anniversary of'. The ...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c864 (Link to this contribution) I am following the logic of the hon. Gentleman's amendment, which is reasoned and, on the whole, has...
Mark Hoban | 492 c869 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West are trying val...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c869 (Link to this contribution) Behind the measure lies the particular role that the chief financial officer plays in a company. He ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c868-9 (Link to this contribution) I am still not persuaded. That is why I look forward to the Financial Secretary's reply, in which I ...
Rob Marris | 492 c868 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in giving way. There is almost a clash of bac...
Mark Hoban | 492 c868 (Link to this contribution) That is fine, but there is already an obligation on directors to maintain proper books of records. T...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman probes the genesis of the measure, I note that he talked about the costs f...
Mark Hoban | 492 c870-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is part of the challenge. The case has not been made, ...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c869 (Link to this contribution) A good example where finance directors can get leant on, I suppose—with no insidious implication—wou...
Mark Hoban | 492 c869 (Link to this contribution) I have great deal of respect for the right hon. Gentleman's business experience. He comes to the Hou...
Mark Hoban | 492 c864-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Consultation should have taken place before the Bill was int...
Rob Marris | 492 c865 (Link to this contribution) Clause 92 introduces schedule 46, which is for discussion later in Committee, but as the issue of ti...
Mark Hoban | 492 c865 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have talked about large companies, and there is also the issu...
Rob Marris | 492 c868 (Link to this contribution) The senior accounting officer's responsibility is to take reasonable steps. We would not have a big ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c865-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and the hon. Gentleman makes an important point about those powers. Perhaps when the Financi...
Rob Marris | 492 c866 (Link to this contribution) May I try to assist the hon. Gentleman? Of course, I cannot speak for HMRC, but as ever, I can refer...
Mark Hoban | 492 c866-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a point about enforceability and about which person should be under an obli...
Robert Syms | 492 c867 (Link to this contribution) There is a real problem, because although only one fine can be levied per year, one presumes that if...
Angela Eagle | 492 c892-3 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman at least acknowledge that we are talking about increases in VED this year of...
David Gauke | 492 c893 (Link to this contribution) I do. In the pre-Budget report, the Government changed their position, and many of my remarks praise...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c893-4 (Link to this contribution) As you know, Mr. Atkinson, I and my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Tayl...
David Gauke | 492 c893 (Link to this contribution) Larger is all relative. We are not talking about sport utility vehicles or Humvees. Renault Méganes ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c894 (Link to this contribution) And friend, very much so. I was going to call her my very honourable Friend, as both of our expenses...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c894 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to have an opportunity to contribute to the debate on an element of the Bill that I re...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c894 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. To some extent, the fact that the higher rates will not be implemented until nex...
Stephen Timms | 492 c886-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right and I am grateful to him for making that point. The hon. Member for Taunton...
David Gauke | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we do. I shall come back to that point—that was a perfectly fair question. I suspect that quite...
Rob Marris | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) May I inquire, purely to seek information, whether the hon. Gentleman can confirm that his party sta...
David Gauke | 492 c891-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it is appropriate to say so in these circumstances, but it is a pleasure to se...
Mark Hoban | 492 c887 (Link to this contribution) I am not convinced by the Financial Secretary's response to the debate. He talks about what we are c...
David Gauke | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) I will. I should make it clear that the figures I have been quoting are those given in the debate la...
Angela Eagle | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Gauke | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, it would be a great omission not to mention him. Is the measure retrospective? If someone h...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c892 (Link to this contribution) What about the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris)?
Rob Marris | 492 c898-900 (Link to this contribution) For the purpose of this debate, I declare an interest in that I drive a car with CO2 emissions of 11...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will deal with that in her response. I recognise, as I am sure all hon. Members...
Rob Marris | 492 c900 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I am not an expert, but I understand that there are some relative...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c900 (Link to this contribution) I share the hon. Gentleman's instincts. However, I am always a little cautious about exempting only ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c897 (Link to this contribution) I do not want us to get muddled up with smoking taxation. I am raising the issue of low-paid workers...
Angela Eagle | 492 c902-4 (Link to this contribution) I hoped that I was saying that there are some taxes through which one hopes to change behaviour, but...
Rob Marris | 492 c900-1;492 c901 (Link to this contribution) As is the hon. Gentlemen's wont, he jumps ahead of me. I was referring to table 2, which relates to ...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c900 (Link to this contribution) Given the hon. Gentleman's undoubted expertise in this area of industry, does he anticipate that mot...
David Gauke | 492 c902 (Link to this contribution) I am far from wriggling. I wish to thank the Minister; she is being very clear, and the Committee ap...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c895-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) says that that is the subject of the next...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c894 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As the Budget comes after the beginning of the financial ...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it does. The Government face the peril of being more successful than they intended to be. Th...
Angela Eagle | 492 c896 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is of course right to say that it is possible to raise revenue and effect behavio...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c896 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting suggestion, but I do not agree with his central premis...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 492 c896 (Link to this contribution) The provisions of the clause and those on fuel duties—the subject of our next debate—are precisely t...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c896 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid point. People in extremely remote areas, and not just those w...
Robert Smith | 492 c896 (Link to this contribution) People who live in remote rural areas often find it essential to have a larger, more fuel-inefficien...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept the hon. Gentleman's point, and his honourable intentions. The trade-off that we...
Mark Hoban | 492 c878 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about how people could use the year's delay. He will...
Robert Syms | 492 c879-81 (Link to this contribution) I declare my interest in today's proceedings on the Finance Bill, as shown in the Register of Member...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c874 (Link to this contribution) There is no question of that. If the hon. Gentleman ever had to work with HMRC and companies—a remot...
Rob Marris | 492 c875 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my concern that in the body politic in the United Kingdom, we—this applies...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c875-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, it is not just honourable; it is the correct way to proceed. I used to start debates in Comm...
Rob Marris | 492 c876 (Link to this contribution) May I give my hon. Friend an example? The Canadian banking system has been far stronger than the ban...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c876-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is dead right, and I agree with him entirely. The idea of bureaucracy regulating entr...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c877-8 (Link to this contribution) The proposals are far-reaching in their implications and were introduced without meaningful notice o...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c874 (Link to this contribution) I want briefly to take up a few points in the light of that discussion. I shall start from the same ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c873-4 (Link to this contribution) In a way, that goes back to risk and materiality. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Wolverhampton,...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c873 (Link to this contribution) Let me reinforce the point that the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson) made. I was ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c873 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that we seem to have forced a concession from the Financial Secretary. Again, it illust...
Mark Hoban | 492 c872 (Link to this contribution) The measure could be expensive, and that is part of the problem. No one knows quite how expensive it...
Mark Hoban | 492 c872-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about whom we are targeting and the level of control. I ...
Stephen Timms | 492 c873 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson) drew on a brief conversation that ...
Mark Hoban | 492 c872 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman looks like he is about to make a point, but I know from my experience of working ...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c872 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks who fathered the provision; I think that it probably has many fathers. In pa...
Stephen Timms | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) I do not know the precise figures in that case. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the figure that we set ...
Stephen Timms | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, companies already have an obligation to deliver correct and complete re...
Mark Hoban | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) There may be a systemic problem in a system that means that the calculation of tax on each transacti...
Stephen Timms | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) That is a perfectly fair point and we will certainly need to address it in the guidance, but what is...
Mark Hoban | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman gave an example earlier involving a company that was systemically under-rep...
Stephen Timms | 492 c884 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly reflect on that, but it should be for the company to determine who will have the ov...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c885 (Link to this contribution) The point of the person being on the board, as opposed to being an officer, is that being on the boa...
Stephen Timms | 492 c885 (Link to this contribution) I will be very happy to reflect on it, but it should be the company concerned that makes the judgmen...
Mark Hoban | 492 c885-6 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the issue of materiality? We discussed this point earlier i...
Rob Marris | 492 c884 (Link to this contribution) On amendments, may I suggest that the Minister looks at the definition of a senior accounting office...
Stephen Timms | 492 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) Let me give the hon. Gentleman the examples that I have in mind. There have been companies where tax...
Mark Hoban | 492 c883 (Link to this contribution) If the weaknesses in the system were so great, would not the Minister have expected those companies'...
John Howell | 492 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point, but I do not believe that the trust that is necessary between the bodi...
John Howell | 492 c881 (Link to this contribution) As usual, my hon. Friend makes an interesting observation. I was not sure whether the hon. Member f...
John Howell | 492 c881 (Link to this contribution) That is a valid point, but I am trying to establish whether there is a causal link between what happ...
Robert Syms | 492 c881 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson) made a good point about the banks. The views...
John Howell | 492 c881 (Link to this contribution) Consensus is emerging on the need for a transparent financial and accounting system. There might be ...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c881 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman says about my comments is pretty well true, but given the entirety of what h...
Greg Hands | 492 c970-1 (Link to this contribution) First, may I serve notice that we hope to have the opportunity to put our amendment 15 to the vote? ...
Edward Timpson | 492 c973-4 (Link to this contribution) May I endorse the clear and strong arguments that have been articulated by Members from all parties ...
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c974-5 (Link to this contribution) Other hon. Members have pointed out the vital importance to many local communities of the soft form ...
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c975 (Link to this contribution) The Minister makes a fair point, and I shall come to it shortly, but before she starts criticising m...
Angela Eagle | 492 c976 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman noticed that we are proposing a consultation on moving towards a gross profit...
Greg Hands | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) Will the Exchequer Secretary tell us who has welcomed the proposals?
Greg Hands | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) Again, I thank the Minister for giving way; she is being most generous. Why, then, is every single b...
Angela Eagle | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) The industry can have any opinion that it likes about the taxation system that applies to it. I am n...
Angela Eagle | 492 c978 (Link to this contribution) No. Prior to the Budget, the effective tax rate was calculated—and widely acknowledged—to be between...
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c979 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is making heavy weather of the point. Most of us entirely agree with her analysis, on t...
Danny Alexander | 492 c936 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. If the Conservatives wanted to support such a measure, they...
David Heath | 492 c935-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. He will remember that last year, when we were debating the ret...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 492 c935 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that his argument also applies to people in Northern Ireland? Wages t...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c944-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for allowing me to take part in this debate again this year, Mrs. Heal. We are discussing...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 492 c941 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying quite a way in the rural areas mentioned in the amendment.
Viscount Thurso | 492 c943-4 (Link to this contribution) When I came into the Chamber to support my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid), I ...
Danny Alexander | 492 c940-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman indulges in economic forecasting. There is reason to believe that the measure wou...
Danny Alexander | 492 c938-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and makes an important point. The issue affects more or less ...
Mike Weir | 492 c938 (Link to this contribution) Is there not another corollary: many businesses based in rural areas face higher costs in getting th...
Angela Eagle | 492 c950-1 (Link to this contribution) I was going to discuss the issue that the hon. Gentleman raises. I just wanted to make the point tha...
Angela Eagle | 492 c950 (Link to this contribution) By definition, that can be the case only if fuel prices are exactly the same everywhere in the count...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c950 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will she acknowledge that the highest fuel prices ment...
Angela Eagle | 492 c949 (Link to this contribution) I intend to deal with some of those points. By acknowledging certain issues and that the fuel price ...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c949 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady says that we have a legitimate case. Does she not therefore think that our constituent...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c946-7 (Link to this contribution) Their excuses are laughable, and the joke has worn rather thin for my constituents over the years. ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c945 (Link to this contribution) My criticism of the Labour Government also applies to the Conservatives. Where there is a will there...
Alan Reid | 492 c954 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend that there was no proposal from the Minister. The hon. Member for South...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 492 c963-4 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 9, page 12, line 18, at end inse...
Alan Reid | 492 c953 (Link to this contribution) Other than Coll and Tiree, islanders are paying extortionately. We take no lessons from his party.
Stewart Hosie | 492 c964 (Link to this contribution) The amendment seeks to introduce fair taxation for bingo, in the light of the increase in bingo duty...
Alan Reid | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the debate has been concentrated in one particular cor...
Alan Reid | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. The only good thing to come out of the debate was the ackno...
Alan Reid | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) I perhaps have a less combative style than my hon. Friend, but I share his sentiments. The Labour an...
Alan Reid | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to stray too far from the debate, but a brief response to that intervention is that my...
Eric Illsley | 492 c969 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right; it is a regressive form of taxation. When I was taught economics...
Kelvin Hopkins | 492 c969 (Link to this contribution) I agree very much with what my hon. Friend is saying. I have visited my local bingo club and listene...
Greg Hands | 492 c967 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman mentioned meetings with the Prime Minister. May I take him back? If ...
David Drew | 492 c968 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the problems is that the perception is that ...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c966-7 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I am trying to make the fiscal case, and I hope he has not over...
Brian Binley | 492 c965-6 (Link to this contribution) In my constituency, a well-managed and organised bingo hall provides highly subsidised food for peop...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c966 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. We cannot overstate the social importance to certain communities of well-r...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c965 (Link to this contribution) I shall talk about the social costs and benefits of what was the iniquity of double taxation, and wh...
Angela Eagle | 492 c977-8 (Link to this contribution) We have had a small, boutique, but extremely well proportioned debate, after many hours on the Finan...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c912 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is not insuperable. Once the baseline is identified, the real key is the ability to ...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c909-10 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman should deal with the previous intervention in slightly more detail. ...
Alan Reid | 492 c925-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 5, page 10, line 39, at end insert—
Danny Alexander | 492 c937 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Members of other parties have made proposals. The intervention from the hon. Member for Sout...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c947-8 (Link to this contribution) I have been to the Office of Fair Trading, and its representatives have come to see me. I can tell M...
Bob Spink | 492 c966 (Link to this contribution) Timing is not the only issue. The tax is pernicious because it is a tax on elderly and frail people....
Mark Hoban | 492 c867-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. We will tease out the detail of the measure in Committee—wh...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c886 (Link to this contribution) There is a natural preoccupation that systems should be robust, but it has always struck me that sys...
Jeremy Browne | 492 c894-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get too far off the beaten track, Mr. Atkinson, but for a person who earns £200,000...
Alistair Carmichael | 492 c929 (Link to this contribution) I think that the point about borders needs to be nailed down. In my case, if someone is to cross the...
David Gauke | 492 c936 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being uncharacteristically tetchy. As I acknowledged, we have this debate regu...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c935 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend eloquently makes the point that using taxation to change behaviour is simply a punish...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c940 (Link to this contribution) As I said a moment ago in a sedentary intervention, there would be increased tax revenue from greate...
Alan Reid | 492 c952 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate—
Lord Foster of Bath | 492 c969 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that even if we were to try to raise more money to make up for the...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c965 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification; she has made the point perfectly. In the absence of wh...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c965 (Link to this contribution) That is a very important question. The fundamental point is that there has been an inability to coun...
Robert Syms | 492 c869 (Link to this contribution) Presumably the penalty is levied directly by HMRC on the company without recourse to courts—I see no...
Robert Syms | 492 c865 (Link to this contribution) The clause seems to muddy the water as to auditors' responsibilities and board responsibilities. It ...
Angela Eagle | 492 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can deal with some of the points raised by Opposition Members and by my hon. Friends o...
Stephen Timms | 492 c883 (Link to this contribution) We have had a useful discussion on this important measure. In the Budget, the Government took diffic...
Geoffrey Robinson | 492 c881-2 (Link to this contribution) My basic premise is indeed that it is better to invite consultation once the purpose of proposed leg...
Stewart Hosie | 492 c907-8 (Link to this contribution) It was, but that is wide of this issue, as is the cabotage issue, although I might refer to that lat...
Alan Reid | 492 c928-9 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has been reading my speech over my shoulder, but I was about to...
Viscount Thurso | 492 c927 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that Royal Mail, in its pre-privatisation mode, has slashed post bus service...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 492 c932 (Link to this contribution) The argument here is about equitable taxation. There are two parts to the taxation on a litre of fue...
Subjects
Accountability Audit Accountancy Companies Bingo Excise duties Exhaust emissions Large goods vehicles Fuels Gaming Double taxation Motor vehicles Oil Prices Taxation VAT Rural areas
Legislation
Finance Bill 2008-09
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
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