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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 2 February 2010, in the House of Lords.

Bribery Bill [HL]

Bribery Bill (HL). Lords report stage. Bill, as amended, ordered to be printed (HL Bill 27).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
717 c117-87 
Session
2009-10
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Bribery Bill (HL). As amended on Report.
Tuesday, 2 February 2010
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2010-0480
Tuesday, 2 February 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c187 (Link to this contribution) I can see that the Conservative Benches are anxious to take another walk through the Lobbies but I d...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, now that the pressure of the following debate has been removed from us and we have lost mu...
Show all contributions (131)
Lord Bach | 717 c182-4 (Link to this contribution) It is precisely the same sort of defence. It is set out in the same way as the defence that we are p...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c184 (Link to this contribution) 20: Clause 12, page 8, line 8, leave out "any function of" and insert "functions relating to nationa...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c184-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I propose now to ask for the opinion of the House on something that will be short and simp...
Lord Bach | 717 c186 (Link to this contribution) 24: Clause 12, page 8, leave out lines 20 to 25 Amendment 24 agreed. Amendment 25 not moved. Amen...
Baroness Whitaker | 717 c179 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, I ask a question of my noble friend in con...
Lord Bach | 717 c181-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 20, 21, 23, 25 and 29 offer us two alternatives. Amendment 29 would strike out ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c182 (Link to this contribution) We are not dealing with pornography. We are not dealing with secret documents. We are not dealing wi...
Lord Bach | 717 c186 (Link to this contribution) 26: Clause 12, page 8, leave out lines 29 to 33 27: Clause 12, page 8, line 37, at end insert— "(b...
Lord Bach | 717 c123 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to confess that it is a long time since I was involved in any case that involved th...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c123 (Link to this contribution) I believe that duress these days requires some kind of physical duress and does not apply to the cir...
Lord Bach | 717 c120-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are grateful to the noble and learned Lord for tabling these amendments. They amend the...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I do have a quick question. He referred to case 1 and case 2, in...
Lord Henley | 717 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not know whether other noble Lords will intervene before the Minister replies, as we ...
Lord Swinfen | 717 c120 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment tabled by my noble and learned friend because some years ago I was...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c117-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 2. The Minister will be pleased to know that Amendments 1 ...
Lord Henley | 717 c123 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 6, page 3, line 42, after "is" insert "improperly"
Lord Bach | 717 c123 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the House: I was wrong. The noble and learned Lord is right on this point. But I, as ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c123 (Link to this contribution) We have much to deal with. I want to make only three short points. It is often said in academic disc...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c117 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 4, page 3, line 10, at end insert "with corrupt intent, and"
Lord Condon | 717 c131 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand and sympathise with the motivation for the amendment, but as a deputy chairma...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 717 c131 (Link to this contribution) In the Joint Committee I supported the Government’s position, as did the Joint Committee itself, tha...
Lord Borrie | 717 c130-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my immediate reaction to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is that I ...
Lord Henley | 717 c128-30 (Link to this contribution) The amendment relates to facilitation payments. The issue was touched upon in our debates in Grand C...
Lord Henley | 717 c128 (Link to this contribution) 5: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— "Facilitation payments A person is not guilty of...
Lord Henley | 717 c128 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response. I am grateful that by a magical means he...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c127-8 (Link to this contribution) I cannot say that there is a specific decision on that at the moment, although I think that it is pr...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c125-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the two amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, seek to introduce an additional ...
Lord Henley | 717 c123-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 4. These amendments have been tabled as a refinement to am...
Lord Woolf | 717 c163-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest, in that I was the chairman of the inquiry into BAE Syste...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) I have no difficulty in making it clear that the classes would need to be quite closely defined. We ...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c162 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I recognise that there have been authorisations be...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c162 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, your Lordships will understand that, having put my name to these amendments, I support the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I criticised Clause 12 in Committee on the basis that the defence in subsection (1) is almost imposs...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 717 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord must know a great deal more about these things than I do, but that is not the way tha...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c165 (Link to this contribution) The point that I am trying to hammer home is that there is an enormous difference between giving a w...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 717 c165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my Amendment 22 is grouped with this, perhaps I may be allowed to speak at this stage. ...
Lord Woolf | 717 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) I can only repeat what I hope I have already made clear—that there is a specific defence and the ame...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 717 c164 (Link to this contribution) I am not learned and do not wish to be referred to in that way because I deplore what my "learned" n...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 717 c155 (Link to this contribution) If I were to recall at this distance all the many cartoons adverse to one activity or another of min...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c156 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Since I have been mentioned, I will say that th...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c156 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid that I am unable to support the role that the noble and learned Lords would li...
Lord Pannick | 717 c159-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 30 in this group. These amendments are in my name and thos...
Lord Pannick | 717 c159 (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 12, page 8, line 4, after "defence" insert ", subject to the conditions set out in sectio...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments raises what I have certainly found to be a difficult issue. The a...
Baroness Whitaker | 717 c156-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not take up the House’s time in repeating exactly what I said in Committee, but I s...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c156 (Link to this contribution) Joint Committees are not always unanimous. On that occasion, I would have been prepared to object to...
Lord Henley | 717 c159 (Link to this contribution) I can assure noble Lords that I shall not press the amendment to a Division tonight, but certainly t...
Lord Bach | 717 c157-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate on the amendment of the noble L...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c151-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Government are saying that if you ask for their advice they will not give it. There wi...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c151 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will come briefly to where we are at the moment. We believe that any advice that could b...
Lord Henley | 717 c153 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord looks at my amendments, he will see that all I am suggesting is that we ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 717 c153 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord putting forward a novel suggestion about the Attorney-General or is he trying to d...
Lord Henley | 717 c152-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 14, I shall speak also to Amendments 15 and 16. I have returned with t...
Lord Henley | 717 c152 (Link to this contribution) 14: Clause 9, page 6, line 11, leave out paragraphs (a) to (c) and insert "the Attorney General"
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 717 c155 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord thought that the best jokes were on his side. Does he rem...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 717 c155 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall not disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I certainly would like to be able to s...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c154-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I greatly respect the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who has enormous expertise in a number of f...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 717 c153-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not previously taken part in the debates on this Bill and I speak on this amendment...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 717 c151 (Link to this contribution) Does this happen at present, or has it in the past? Informal advice is often given, is it not?
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c148 (Link to this contribution) I did not receive an answer, other than to ask me why on earth I was asking the question.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c148-9 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful for the intervention. It would be an evidential matter in the trial. Bearing in...
Lord Pannick | 717 c148 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am unclear about the extent of this provision. Subsection (2) of the new clause makes cl...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 717 c149 (Link to this contribution) I have found the department to be very helpful whereas the impression that has been conveyed today i...
Lord Henley | 717 c149 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I express a degree of sympathy for the noble Lord’s amendment. There is something in this,...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c150 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lords, Lord Goodhart, Lord Williamson, Lord Borrie and Lord Henle...
Earl of Onslow | 717 c149-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be incredibly simple to fix this. The guidance could be written out and it could ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c150-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would not dream of gainsaying the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, in his recollection of the re...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c150 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord also agree that the Joint Committee said that it had not been given sufficient ...
Lord Henley | 717 c177-8 (Link to this contribution) I intervene briefly to say to the Government that we welcome their amendment to delete subsection (1...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 717 c178 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19—bravo! Amendment 20 would leave out any function of the intelligence services and limit...
Lord Archer of Sandwell | 717 c178-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not previously intervened on your Lordships’ discussion on this Bill and I would hav...
Lord Pannick | 717 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his careful consideration of this difficult matter and for his courtesy and...
Lord Bach | 717 c175 (Link to this contribution) 19: Clause 12, page 8, line 6, leave out paragraph (a)
Lord Bach | 717 c175-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I attempted to explain in the debate on the previous group of amendments, the purpose o...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c176-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we on these Benches welcome Amendment 19. It is absolutely right to have removed the law e...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 717 c174 (Link to this contribution) I agree, but is that not because there would then be the vice of legal uncertainty in the criminal p...
Lord Bach | 717 c174 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said that there was no restraint or supervision under the cu...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who has raised an important point. It would almost certain...
Lord Bach | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) It would depend on how wide the authorisation was. That is the point. If it was a class authorisatio...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) Am I right in thinking that the one thing that cannot happen is for there to be a blowing hot and co...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c172 (Link to this contribution) I think that prior authorisation is behind the amendment. If there is prior authorisation to carry o...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) How will the person defending himself be able to get the necessary information about the activities ...
Lord Bach | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the matter would go, first, to a prosecutor, who would decide, bearing in mind what the cl...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has already dealt with the situation if someone is prosecuted. There is no doubt that, ...
Lord Bach | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, more important, prosecuting conduct that has previously been authorised by a Minister, whe...
Lord Bach | 717 c169-72 (Link to this contribution) Then we have misunderstood the noble Viscount’s amendment. I thank him very much for pointing out wh...
Lord Bach | 717 c172 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his question, although I cannot give him the figures. I do not think that...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c172 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that if a person was authorised he could still be prosecuted. Amendment 30 state...
Lord Bach | 717 c172 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, under Clause 12, which would also be in existence under the terms of these amend...
Lord Goodlad | 717 c167 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, my noble and le...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 717 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is with humility and diffidence that I rise to support the amendments in this group. I ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 717 c168-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have one observation to add, coming new to this debate. The best system must be prior au...
Lord Bach | 717 c169 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. As the noble and learned...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 717 c169 (Link to this contribution) I had no intention of doing that; I wish to take out the law enforcement agencies and leave in the S...
Lord Bach | 717 c147 (Link to this contribution) 12: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Guidance about commercial organisations preven...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c147 (Link to this contribution) 13: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Advisory service (1) The relevant government d...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c147-8 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, I pointed out the value to the business community both in Hong Kong and the United Sta...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 717 c148 (Link to this contribution) What is the present procedure? As far as I recall from practice, if one telephoned for guidance abou...
Earl of Onslow | 717 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we learnt in Committee that the Americans provide guidance in their system and it was that...
Lord Henley | 717 c145 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the Government for bringing forward this concession. ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c145-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we were pressed on the issue of a draft of a draft. Given the general support for the amen...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c148 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that intervention, which makes the point that I am trying to make. These days...
Lord Henley | 717 c143 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is another group of amendments which did not exactly attract universal support. But I...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c143 (Link to this contribution) 10: Clause 7, page 5, line 16, at end insert "and see section (Guidance about commercial organisatio...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c141-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken. It is clear from the Bill, and it will be clear from ...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c140 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is about time that we on these Benches came into the battle. The noble Lord, Lord Henl...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c141 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as no other noble Lord wants to say anything, perhaps a second speech from these Benches w...
Lord Henley | 717 c138-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 7, 8, 9 and 11. We have now reached Clause 7, which requi...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 717 c144-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments. It is easy to forget that at an earlier stage, while there was a...
Lord Goodhart | 717 c144 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Government for the amendments that they have brought forwar...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c143-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments concern Clause 7, which introduces a new offence of failure of a commerci...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 717 c132 (Link to this contribution) When we come to matters affecting criminal law, precision is vital. In this respect, the amendments ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c132 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with every speech that has been made, which shows one of the difficulties of the B...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 717 c132 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is very considerable unclarity in the amendment itself, but I have every respect for...
Lord Blackwell | 717 c132-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not intervened before in this debate but, with the indulgence of the House, I shoul...
Baroness Whitaker | 717 c133 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord accept that a tip refers to something that is given after a service has been ren...
Lord Blackwell | 717 c133 (Link to this contribution) I shall respond to the noble Baroness briefly. Of course a tip is normally given after the event, an...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 717 c134-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, earlier in one’s life one says: "Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking". On this matter,...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c133-4 (Link to this contribution) The issue of facilitation payments was raised in the Joint Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts...
Lord Henley | 717 c138 (Link to this contribution) 6: Clause 7, page 5, line 4, leave out subsection (1) and insert— "(1) A relevant commercial organis...
Lord Henley | 717 c137-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, after the almost universal support that I have received for my amendment in a charge led b...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c145 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment. It is vital that this should be in the Bill and take the form of a duty to ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 717 c179-81 (Link to this contribution) One concern that we have had on these Benches is with Article 5 of the OECD convention—namely, that ...
Lord Bach | 717 c173 (Link to this contribution) There may be an issue if the authorisation is of an extremely wide class nature. If the prosecutor f...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 717 c172 (Link to this contribution) My impression is that the number of prosecutions each year for the past four or five years in relati...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 717 c127 (Link to this contribution) Is this an area in which the Government propose to give guidance?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 717 c148 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understood from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, in Committee that in fact the b...
Subjects
Armed forces Business Corruption Fraud Intelligence services Expenditure Gratuities GCHQ Ministerial powers National security Prosecutions Public service Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Treaties Trade Corporate hospitality Sales promotions OECD Anti-Bribery Convention Bribery
Legislation
Bribery Bill (HL) 2009-10
Link
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