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Debate on Thursday, 18 March 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Kim Howells. The answering member was David Miliband.

Intelligence and Security Committee

Debate on a motion that this House has considered the matter of the Intelligence and Security Committee annual report (Cm 7807) and the government's response (Cm 7808).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
507 c990-1074 
Session
2009-10
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 507 c1040 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hesitate to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but we obviously have to be careful about m...
Show all contributions (187)
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c990 (Link to this contribution) I am on the MP scrappage scheme as well!
Kim Howells | 507 c990 (Link to this contribution) I have hardly got started. I will not give way yet, but I will come back to my hon. Friend.
Kim Howells | 507 c995-7 (Link to this contribution) I tried to answer the hon. Gentleman in the best way I could. I have no objection to that at all. Si...
Richard Ottaway | 507 c994 (Link to this contribution) Does the Chairman agree that if the ISC sat in public, no evidence would be put before it that could...
Kim Howells | 507 c994 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I understood the hon. Gentleman's question—I know that he is a tough questioner b...
Lord Beith | 507 c994 (Link to this contribution) Surely the issue is not whether the Committee is in name a Select Committee but how it has to operat...
Kim Howells | 507 c994 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, who has been a distinguished member of the Committ...
Ed Davey | 507 c995 (Link to this contribution) Is the right hon. Gentleman convinced that his Committee has the resources and the backing that the ...
Kim Howells | 507 c995 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised that point. We have the NAO as one of our investig...
David Winnick | 507 c993 (Link to this contribution) I hope my right hon. Friend recognises that the criticism that may well come today, including from m...
Kim Howells | 507 c993 (Link to this contribution) That was a very fine speech, and I appreciated it, but my hon. Friend has a speech of his own to mak...
Kim Howells | 507 c991 (Link to this contribution) That is for good now. I am very grateful, as ever, to my hon. Friend for bringing these matters to o...
Lembit Opik | 507 c992 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a contradiction in the Government's behaviour in r...
David Miliband | 507 c1002-4 (Link to this contribution) Given that it seems that the Committee tabled the motion, not the Government, it is nice to be able ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1004 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the Foreign Secretary's premise. I illustrate my opinion with the fact that in 2008,...
Marquess of Lothian | 507 c1006 (Link to this contribution) Members of the Committee have thought very carefully about the prospect of public hearings, and have...
David Miliband | 507 c1006 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept that the right hon. Gentleman and other members of the Committee have gone back ...
David Miliband | 507 c1005 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree—that is a good point.
Speaker | 507 c1002 (Link to this contribution) The Government's response to the 2009-10 report has also been published, but perhaps not in time for...
Speaker | 507 c1001-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who gave me some little notice of the point of order that he wa...
Speaker | 507 c1002 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I think it is quite clear that under the terms of the motion be...
William Cash | 507 c998 (Link to this contribution) I think I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that he thought the Committee should be moved to the pr...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) If I were to look up "wriggle room" in the dictionary, I would be provided with exactly what the hon...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1067-9 (Link to this contribution) Let me start by paying another full set of tributes to my right hon. Friend—and, indeed, my right ho...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) There were a lot of points in that intervention and I shall not try to answer them all—indeed, I am ...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1061 (Link to this contribution) I think that my right hon. Friend misunderstands the purpose of an inquiry. The purpose would not be...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1056-7 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I intend to move on. The only thing that I would say is that J...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1057-60 (Link to this contribution) I might turn out to be in a minority of MPs who have spoken in this debate—not only will I be here f...
George Howarth | 507 c1056 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howel...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) I realise that; I was going to come to that point. Specifically in relation to Diego Garcia, our re...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1072-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend sometimes subscribes to the conspiracy theory of life, despite not being a member of ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1071 (Link to this contribution) I thought so. That is probably why my right hon. Friend asked about the integrity of the Committee a...
David Miliband | 507 c1008 (Link to this contribution) I see my right hon. Friend nods. I said earlier that there are hard-working staff in the Cabinet Off...
David Miliband | 507 c1008 (Link to this contribution) To be accurate, one does not have to guess to whom the Chairman was referring: he was referring to w...
Mark Pritchard | 507 c1009 (Link to this contribution) Given that the Foreign Secretary has told the House that there has been administrative feuding and g...
David Miliband | 507 c1009 (Link to this contribution) It is an important question, but it is a completely different question from the one that we have bee...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1008 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary will, I think, agree that the speech by the Chair of the Committee about what ...
David Miliband | 507 c1006 (Link to this contribution) Let me make some progress on that point. I am a quarter of the way through a thought, never mind a s...
Michael Mates | 507 c1007 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary is praising the Government for having given us an investigator—we will gloss o...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for that, but, if I may, I shall offer my own translation of ...
Ed Davey | 507 c1015 (Link to this contribution) Getting your excuses in early!
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1015 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am already anticipating the problems. But we do not know what state it is in.
Michael Mates | 507 c1015-6 (Link to this contribution) The House would benefit from a little more openness about what the problem is. There were eight mont...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1016 (Link to this contribution) It is very helpful. Indeed, we have just learned more from my right hon. Friend in a couple of momen...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1015 (Link to this contribution) The Committee knows, and perhaps my right hon. Friend will be able to enlighten us on that.
David Miliband | 507 c1009-10 (Link to this contribution) What I actually said was that administrative feuding should not divert the Committee from the vital ...
David Miliband | 507 c1011 (Link to this contribution) As I have said in the House on a number of occasions, the fact that the budget is increasing does no...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1012-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome this opportunity to acknowledge the valuable role performed by the Intelligence and Securi...
Michael Mates | 507 c1038 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The conclusion will not be affected, unless of course ...
George Howarth | 507 c1038 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has described the situation accurately. However, is it not also the case th...
Michael Mates | 507 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but that does not take away from the point that if an individual says that he was mistreated by...
Michael Mates | 507 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I am indeed aware of that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. However, I am not talking about the case; I am simply...
Speaker | 507 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Order. Obviously I am not as well versed in these matters as the right hon. Member for East Hampshir...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it is true; I hope it is. I was rather puzzled that the director general of th...
George Howarth | 507 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should use the past tense, rather than the present...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1050-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Kensington Pentlands, or something or other, says, "It still is." I thought so, ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I most definitely do take it seriously, and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for intervening. H...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1046-9 (Link to this contribution) I happily respond to my hon. Friend. Our security services might know that a detainee who continues ...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1046 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. and learned Friend think that continuing to put questions in such circumstances i...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) Enhanced interrogation, coercive interrogation—various phrases were used to try to avoid saying the ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution) We can read her comments for ourselves and decide what her intention was or whether it was just a ca...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1052-4 (Link to this contribution) Kensington and wherever, yes. Pentlands, isn't it? He spoke very well in saying that the Select Comm...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1055 (Link to this contribution) It is pronounced "Diego Garcia" not "Dago Garcia".
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1054-5 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman misses the point. The point is that when the Committee reported to Parliame...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is incapable of recommending that, because although he is a very nice man h...
Mark Pritchard | 507 c1017 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the tardiness of the Government on the issue might be interpret...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1017-20 (Link to this contribution) It would be most unfortunate, although I hope that people would not think that, because they should ...
William Cash | 507 c1016 (Link to this contribution) In the context of what we have just heard, and without in any way criticising the Chairman of the Co...
Ed Davey | 507 c1024 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman, who is a member of the Committee, will put me right on this and re...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 507 c1020-3 (Link to this contribution) I am very pleased to be able to take part in the debate, because for three of the five years of the ...
Ed Davey | 507 c1025 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected although, in my defence, I should point out that the report only came out at 10 o'...
George Howarth | 507 c1024 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman may be referring to the previous report. If he were to look at the 2...
Ed Davey | 507 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I will let the right hon. Gentleman intervene in a moment. All I would say is that I am sure that re...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1027 (Link to this contribution) An extraordinary statement is contained in paragraphs 151 and 152 on page 43 of the 2008-09 report."...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1030 (Link to this contribution) That is why they could not find the computers—they have hidden all about him.
Lord Beith | 507 c1028 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is equally important to ensure that officers are aware of the guid...
George Howarth | 507 c1030 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that my hon. Friend can occasionally be funny; on this occasion he was not. It was al...
George Howarth | 507 c1034 (Link to this contribution) The quote that I gave is on page 19 of the report, and it is from the director of national intellige...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1034 (Link to this contribution) No, the one that you've just mentioned.
George Howarth | 507 c1034 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend let me answer in my own way? The second point was made by a senior official who ...
George Howarth | 507 c1033-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who is perfectly correct in his description. It is worth ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1036 (Link to this contribution) Of course my right hon. Friend is right to distinguish between torture and CIDT, but I hope that he ...
Michael Mates | 507 c1035-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth),...
Kim Howells | 507 c990-1 (Link to this contribution) Then I will come back to my hon. Friend. There are many other important issues that have come befor...
Kim Howells | 507 c990 (Link to this contribution) It is my right to continue, is it not, Mr. Speaker?
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c990 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Kim Howells | 507 c990 (Link to this contribution) I have had the honour to chair the Intelligence and Security Committee since October 2008, or for ro...
William Cash | 507 c995 (Link to this contribution) Knowing the right hon. Gentleman as I do and knowing that he is robust and independent, I find the f...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c994 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what the right hon. Gentleman says, but will he bear the following fact in mind...
Kim Howells | 507 c994-5 (Link to this contribution) I have always found the right hon. Gentleman's words to be very wise, but on this point we are very ...
Kim Howells | 507 c993-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. Those undertakings—or promises, or pledges, or whatever we want to ca...
Kim Howells | 507 c992 (Link to this contribution) Much as I do not want to disagree with the hon. Gentleman, I have to say I have not experienced thos...
Kim Howells | 507 c992-3 (Link to this contribution) That is a very good question. I would have no objection to the Chair of the Committee being a member...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c993 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend looks at the Official Report tomorrow, he will see he said that if the ISC w...
David Winnick | 507 c1005 (Link to this contribution) Despite what the Chairman of the Committee said, I am not in favour of an ordinary Select Committee ...
George Howarth | 507 c1005 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is completely right that some issues could be aired in public sessions with the...
David Miliband | 507 c1005 (Link to this contribution) I strongly agree. The ISC is not a normal committee. It looks at activities that are, by definition,...
David Miliband | 507 c1004-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises a point of principle and another specific point. He has the perfectly legitima...
Michael Mates | 507 c997 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more. The right hon. Gentleman points out that such behaviour is a relatively new ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1002 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am very grateful to you for that advice, parti...
William Cash | 507 c1002 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was somewhat surprised to hear reference to th...
Kim Howells | 507 c997-8 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more, as I shall try to make clear. As for our staff, the secretariat of the ISC,...
Kim Howells | 507 c998-1001 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. The Committee is in a completely separate building, an...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the issues that everybody has wanted to look at, but my experience of the telecommuni...
Mark Oaten | 507 c1070 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister share my concern that one of the barriers to progress in this area has been the re...
David Lidington | 507 c1069 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is letting election fever get the better of him. Our position is that we are strongly i...
David Lidington | 507 c1063-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says the doyen, but I suppose he is more continentally minded than I am. Above all, I p...
David Lidington | 507 c1063 (Link to this contribution) I add my salute to members of the Intelligence and Security Committee and, in particular, to the fou...
Kim Howells | 507 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) I have not got a problem with a judge-led inquiry, if it is designed to try to reassure the public t...
Michael Mates | 507 c1061 (Link to this contribution) We must make sure that we get this point right. As my hon. Friend says, neither the ISC nor the Gove...
George Howarth | 507 c1061 (Link to this contribution) Did I mishear the hon. Gentleman, or did he say that Ministers and members of the Intelligence and S...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1061 (Link to this contribution) No, I did not say that. I said that they had not been able to get to the truth. For example, I consi...
Kim Howells | 507 c1056 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that he is referring to a court case involving someone known as witness B wh...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1056 (Link to this contribution) All I have done is read out the wording of my right hon. Friend's report. If he reads in the Officia...
Speaker | 507 c1056 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that is not actually a point of order: it is a point of debate. H...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1071 (Link to this contribution) On a point of correction, it is not just about Diego Garcia, but about any situations where members ...
William Cash | 507 c1008 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary will know that in the Government's reply to the annual report for 2009-10, the...
David Miliband | 507 c1009 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the right hon. Member for East Hampshire agrees. We have taken the right lessons in t...
David Miliband | 507 c1009 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and as the hon. Gentleman will recall from the Butler report and elsewhere, the proposals that ...
Ed Davey | 507 c1006 (Link to this contribution) This is not simply about public hearings, but about the public having confidence in the ISC's work. ...
David Miliband | 507 c1006 (Link to this contribution) To be fair, I was coming on to that. We should always look at the Committee's procedures and its sit...
George Howarth | 507 c1007 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes two points about our suggestion. The first is in relation to the budget. ...
David Miliband | 507 c1008 (Link to this contribution) The agencies that the Committee holds accountable are responsible to me and to the Home Secretary. G...
David Miliband | 507 c1007 (Link to this contribution) Let me look into that. As the right hon. Gentleman will know from the numerous appearances that I ha...
David Miliband | 507 c1014 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to do so. The Committee has raised some very important issues about the way in which...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1015 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend is quite likely, in a few weeks' time, to be sitting where the Foreign Secre...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1015 (Link to this contribution) Given all that I have said, it would be a very high priority to get that guidance published, althoug...
David Miliband | 507 c1011 (Link to this contribution) I can say that we will meet as soon as possible, given the travel commitments of the Committee, whic...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1014 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. That should be a major concern, and there are others that I ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1014 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is quite right to ask that question, and if the Foreign Secretary wishes to int...
Michael Mates | 507 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution) I mean that it is in the report that has not been published. It is not lost, but it has got lost in ...
Lord Tyrie | 507 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that public concern about rendition and the UK's involvement i...
Michael Mates | 507 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will listen a little more carefully when I repeat what I said. I did not ...
George Howarth | 507 c1043 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that any of us would argue that the director general of the Security Service should n...
David Winnick | 507 c1042-3 (Link to this contribution) I understand your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but the right hon. Gentleman said that he was not crit...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1044 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by making it entirely clear, and perhaps creating a precedent, that I have every intenti...
David Winnick | 507 c1043-4 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps not, but I do take the view that there is a sort of consensus—I am not sure whether it inclu...
David Winnick | 507 c1040-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall follow up some of the remarks made by the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), ...
Kim Howells | 507 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my hon. Friend is not assuming—he would be wrong if he did—that the Intelligence and Sec...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) In the years that I have been in the House of Commons, I have taken part in most of these debates—mo...
Malcolm Rifkind | 507 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I note that that is what the security services have said. I very much endorse the view expressed in ...
Chris Bryant | 507 c1055 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it clear, before my hon. Friend misrepresents Secretary Clinton, that that is not wha...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1055 (Link to this contribution) Whatever. The important thing is what the report says, which is that the Prime Minister received spe...
Michael Mates | 507 c1054 (Link to this contribution) The answer is that the matter was decided in the courts. The court came to a judgment, the person co...
Ed Davey | 507 c1023-4 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by joining other Members in praising our security and intelligence services? As somebody...
Ed Davey | 507 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I will let the right hon. Gentleman intervene in a moment. The all-party group on rendition also con...
Michael Mates | 507 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. The Committee did look at the matter; it looked ...
Ed Davey | 507 c1027 (Link to this contribution) I have similar concerns. The Foreign Secretary gave us fair warning that the case is sub judice so I...
Ed Davey | 507 c1027 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary shakes his head, because he is obviously about to say that we are debating fut...
Kim Howells | 507 c1029 (Link to this contribution) That was never the case as far as records were concerned. We looked very hard at this and I hope tha...
Ed Davey | 507 c1029 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to take the right hon. Gentleman's word on that. This is an important debate. I hope tha...
Ed Davey | 507 c1028-9 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There are two basic questions about the guidance. First, i...
George Howarth | 507 c1031 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman who, as Chair of the Justice Committee, has good reason to...
Lord Beith | 507 c1030 (Link to this contribution) As one who is still engaged in overseeing the work being done in the Home Office and with the agenci...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1034 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend reflects on what he has just told the House, which I am sure is 100 per cent...
George Howarth | 507 c1031-2 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to see that my hon. Friend does not think that. However, the underlying assumption of many...
Michael Mates | 507 c1032-3 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman made a very important point about redactions and the frustrations that exis...
Michael Mates | 507 c1036-7 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. I have simply said that there is a dilemma, an...
George Howarth | 507 c1029 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by echoing the sentiments that have already been expressed about the members of the Comm...
William Cash | 507 c992 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the great importance of this Committee and its very responsible remit, but does the righ...
Speaker | 507 c1004 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the Foreign Secretary answers, I say to the hon. Gentleman that these interventions ar...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c1001 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I ask both for your guidance and, I believe, for the protec...
Mark Pritchard | 507 c1011 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for giving way; he is being very generous. Will he not accept...
Ed Davey | 507 c1014 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point, and he has our full support on this matter. Is ...
Michael Mates | 507 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I hope the hon. Gentleman was not trying to put words in my mouth. I would never hav...
Andrew Mackinlay | 507 c991 (Link to this contribution) I give notice that some of my right hon. Friend's officials might like to refer to column 433 of our...
Speaker | 507 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Order. I know that it is difficult as the Minister is addressing the comments of a particular hon. M...
Ed Davey | 507 c1010 (Link to this contribution) I would like to take the Foreign Secretary back to the guidance. He says that he wants to publish it...
Michael Mates | 507 c1014 (Link to this contribution) I noticed the Foreign Secretary wincing slightly when my right hon. Friend said that the delay was d...
Michael Mates | 507 c1038 (Link to this contribution) But if that judge is not independent, which judge is? If we are to put the matter in the hands of a ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 507 c1016-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to join in any criticism of the Chairman of the Committee, because he gave a trenchan...
Ed Davey | 507 c1026-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcomed the part of the report that criticised the Americans, because no doubt they were at fault...
Subjects
Accountability Administration Finance Intelligence services Intelligence and Security Committee National security Parliamentary scrutiny Location Terrorism Select committees Torture Rendition Diego Garcia Espionage
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