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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 1 November 2010, in the House of Lords.

Identity Documents Bill

Identity Documents Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to5 agreed to. New clause under consideration. Grand Commitee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
721 c1-44GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Deposited Paper DEP2010-1918
Monday, 1 November 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2010-2130
Monday, 29 November 2010
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c27GC (Link to this contribution) 6: Clause 3, page 2, line 17, after ““Register”” insert ““or under its control””
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution) The Information Commissioner needs to be satisfied that the destruction process has been proper, tho...
Show all contributions (105)
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c37GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 19 is in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. The provision is cover...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) Of course, to higher and greater things. It is notorious in our system that Ministers remain in post...
Lord Brett | 721 c1GC (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 2, page 1, line 17, leave out from ““day”” to end of line 12 on page 2 and insert ““will r...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) Every cardholder has been written to and told that the scheme will be cancelled, yes.
Earl of Erroll | 721 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I envisaged that the amendment meant that the fingerprints go, everything on the NIR is scrapped and...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. To be honest, I ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Are we not now getting on to Amendment 3? The noble ...
Lord Rosser | 721 c3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support both the amendments in my noble friend’s name in this group and the related Amen...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c5GC (Link to this contribution) The biometric data held on identity cards are different from those held on passports, so that is not...
Lord Rosser | 721 c4-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not talking entirely about compensation: I am talking about the issue of scrapping the card and...
Baroness Fookes | 721 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber, the Grand Committee will immediately adjourn, and r...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c2-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to Amendments 1 and 4 because, as I said on Second Reading, when we d...
Lord Brett | 721 c1-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment seeks to retain one part that is enshrined in the law of the 2006 Act; that...
Lord Rosser | 721 c5GC (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, I take the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. I think what he is saying...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c6-7GC (Link to this contribution) It is defined as a travel document. The issue is what the passport database contains. It is able to ...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt yet again, but paragraph (a) in Amendment 4 states, "““which is relevant to ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c7GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, but the fingerprint process is an integral part of the ID card process. The noble Earl is sayin...
Lord Brett | 721 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I seem to have caused part of this confusion with my amendment. As I understood during that brief pe...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment does not contain all that accompanying detail. It is not easy, therefore, to...
Lord Rosser | 721 c8GC (Link to this contribution) I have a question in the light of what the Minister has said. If it were possible to produce somethi...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c8-9GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot give advance assent to a proposition that I have not seen in writing, so I cannot concede t...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has just raised a series of issues that are not covered by th...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c6GC (Link to this contribution) Is the passport defined as a paper document containing X number of pages, or could the general word ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c12-3GC (Link to this contribution) No, but even if we are not, I am still fascinated to know how many of us did. I will be quite frank—...
Lord Brett | 721 c13GC (Link to this contribution) My previous confession about having read all three manifestos was somewhat of a wasted investment, g...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c12GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did, too, but surely the point is that we are not really ordinary people in this context...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c14GC (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that in September it was not clear that there would be no refund—no one had ...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c13-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not add my name to the amendment because there was not room, but I spoke about this ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c14GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the importance that the noble Lords who have spoken place on the matter of refunds, but...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c9GC (Link to this contribution) 3: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— ““Compensation The Secretary of State shall, by ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c9-11GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to Amendment 3 I shall speak also to the other amendments in this group, Amendments 8 an...
Lord Brett | 721 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I am more confused now than I was when we started. I cannot even recognise the replacement costs. Bu...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c16GC (Link to this contribution) The question of the cards and whether they would be valid after the election, and everything associa...
Lord Bach | 721 c16GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness quotes me correctly. Obviously, the House does take notice of manifestos, but the...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c15GC (Link to this contribution) They have, however, been written to to say that the scheme will be cancelled. The key issue is not t...
Lord Brett | 721 c15GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness provide the evidence to back up her conviction that the public do not want I...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we do not have a socioeconomic profile of those who bought cards. We have other profiles b...
Lord Maxton | 721 c16GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness tell us exactly when this information was made public vis-à-vis those who ha...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c14GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have just said that this survey of correspondence went on after the statement was made i...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c15GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way, but will she answer the point made by ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c15GC (Link to this contribution) People have been written to. I will come to that in a moment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c15GC (Link to this contribution) With respect, I checked this; they have not yet been written to to say that they will not get refund...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c26GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord said, there may be lessons to be learnt, and I, too, should be interested to know ...
Lord Bach | 721 c26-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the register would have to continue or not. The data would continue to be coll...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c25GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, those arguing for this amendment have made a case based on the value of these cards to air...
Lord Bach | 721 c25-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate: my noble friend Lord Brett, with hi...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c27GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to this quite briefly. Clause 3 is about the destruction of information recor...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c24GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to intervene on this amendment, but I will say two things. First, I sus...
Lord Brett | 721 c23-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I was involved in this, it seemed potentially to be a win-win situation. We have hear...
Lord Bach | 721 c23GC (Link to this contribution) I think that there might be some advantages for security in this scheme, and I would like to know th...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c23GC (Link to this contribution) It is important to mention that the noble Lord has just used the word ““convenient””. I am sure that...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 721 c18-9GC (Link to this contribution) That is an entirely fair point, which I am happy to take. The fact remains, though, that even under ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c19GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. There is some risk that we will return to debating th...
Earl Attlee | 721 c20GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones will shortly repeat a Statement in the Chamber on av...
Lord Bach | 721 c20GC (Link to this contribution) 5: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— ““ID card trial for airside workers (1) The Secr...
Lord Bach | 721 c20-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we turn to a new aspect of the Bill, perhaps an appropriate one at a time when security, p...
Countess of Mar | 721 c22GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Bach, kept saying that the airside ID cards would help to prevent what has happ...
Lord Bach | 721 c22GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Countess for asking that question. I have tried to be extremely careful. ...
Lord Brett | 721 c18GC (Link to this contribution) First, it was a phased rollout, starting in 2009 and ending in 2012-13. It was restricted to Manches...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 721 c18GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has invited the mover of the amendment to withdraw it, but that still leaves ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c36GC (Link to this contribution) On that basis and with the prospect of some further conversation before Report, I beg leave to withd...
Lord Brett | 721 c36GC (Link to this contribution) 12: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Identity fraud (1) The Secretary of State mus...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c35GC (Link to this contribution) It may assist the Committee at the next of the stage of the Bill if I say that subsection (3), which...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c36GC (Link to this contribution) The part of the noble Baroness’s argument that I found conclusive was that this clause reproduces ex...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c35GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, but I shall still come back to the point. The noble Baroness said that Claus...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c35GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed—I may not have spoken clearly. I did indeed say—at least I thought that I said—that we are in...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c35GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has—I nearly said ““dealt manfully””, but that would not be right—dealt with ...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 4(3) excludes the scenario where a person uses another’s card to establish personal...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c34GC (Link to this contribution) Would it be possible later to have a written explanation of what Clause 4(3) means? I am sure that I...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, speaking as a non-lawyer, I hope that I may be able to give the noble Lord some comfort on...
Countess of Mar | 721 c33GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I return to the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights? It says, in relation to...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c30-1GC (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments—Amendments 9, 10 and 11, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, as wel...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to these amendments because I, too, had read the clause and got myself into ...
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 721 c33GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, sitting between the Cross Benches and my noble friend’s Liberal Democrats, I have to confe...
Lord Rosser | 721 c33GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, and the noble Earl, L...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c28-30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for the time that he has taken to discuss this aspe...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although there are different views about the ID scheme—as we identified in our earlier deb...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c30GC (Link to this contribution) 9: Clause 4, page 2, line 32, at end insert ““(with the exception, in the case of a document within ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving us such a comprehensive description of the pro...
Countess of Mar | 721 c27GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, as does the Joint Committee on Human Rights. On p...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 721 c42GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow. She has just made an important statement, which is that...
Countess of Mar | 721 c41GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I not normally in favour of reports being put before Parliament. We have far too many repo...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c41-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are discussing two akin but not entirely identical amendments. I shall deal with them s...
Lord Brett | 721 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, personally I am sure that the reference by the noble Baroness to a higher place was simply...
Earl Attlee | 721 c44GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until Wednesday next at 3.45 pm.
Earl of Erroll | 721 c39GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. It is important to have an external view of these things that will report directly to Pa...
Baroness Hamwee | 721 c39GC (Link to this contribution) We have an amendment on that later.
Lord Rosser | 721 c39-41GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to speak to my noble friend Lord Brett’s amendment as well as to the amendments of ...
Lord Brett | 721 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the contribution of the Minister in the previous debate has provided a purpose for putting...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 721 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will forgive me. The Committee is considering Amendment 1...
Earl of Erroll | 721 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) I thought we had leapt ahead of ourselves for a moment; it was great. I also put my name down to Ame...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c16-7GC (Link to this contribution) I quite appreciate what the noble Lord has just said. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the imp...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disagree with the noble Baroness, but, with the greatest respect, first, clearly, this...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) With the greatest of respect to the noble Baroness, the preferred option says that it includes the c...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that this Chamber or the House is under any illusion as to which of these options we ...
Countess of Mar | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I might have got this wrong, but the Minister said every cardholder had been written to an...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) Option 2 was the preferred option, as I have made clear. That is the option that we are discussing. ...
Countess of Mar | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, is that not contempt of Parliament? Parliament has not yet decided that the scheme wil...
Lord Brett | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would it be helpful if a copy of that letter were placed in the Library of the House so th...
Baroness Neville-Jones | 721 c17GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is certainly the Government’s intention to cancel it, assuming that Parliament gives it...
Subjects
Compensation Aviation Costs Airports Fraud Identity cards Personation Staff National identity register Proof of identity Passports Travel Security
Legislation
Identity Documents Bill 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk