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Finance (No. 4) Bill (Clauses 1, 4, 8, 189 and 209, Schedules 1, 23 and 33, and certain new Clauses and new Schedules relating to value added tax)

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

543 c327-473 

Session

2010-12

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Finance (No. 4) Bill 2010-12. Explanatory Notes Bill 325-EN also published. (Vote)
Monday, 26 March 2012
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Mark Simmonds | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

David Gauke | 543 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) I cannot, because I have only about two minutes left, but my hon. Friend has expressed his views to ...

Show all contributions (487)

Edward Leigh | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) This is a key point. The Government have announced that they will increase the listed places of wors...

David Gauke | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) I refer my hon. Friend to the comments that I made before his intervention. Let me respond briefly ...

David Gauke | 543 c442 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend continues to make his case very strongly. We are, of course, listening to the argumen...

David Gauke | 543 c442 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart).

Graham Stuart | 543 c442 (Link to this contribution) A two-week extension is not a large extension, but it is an extension none the less. However, the Go...

Edward Leigh | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

David Gauke | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) Our original announcement of £5 million was based on a church report, but it is not set in stone. We...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c459 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 8, page 532, line 14, in schedule 23, leave out...

Chloe Smith | 543 c463 (Link to this contribution) To ensure that all hon. Members who wish to do so can speak in this debate, I intend to lay out extr...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendment 8 in my name and those of my colleagues, and I should like to press ame...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c464 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman has said about the general level of APD, but does he no...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c464 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c442 (Link to this contribution) At the outset of this debate there was a bit of laughing and joking, but the tone quickly changed as...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c451 (Link to this contribution) We come now to new clause 6. I call Mr Stuart to move it formally.

Graham Stuart | 543 c451 (Link to this contribution) After the concession by the Government, I choose not to move the new clause.

Brandon Lewis | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's generosity in giving way. Does he not accept, however, that there ...

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being a bit disingenuous as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The reason A...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) It is not unusual to see Labour once again abandoning principle in its arguments. Surely we should b...

Alan Reid | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) I infer from what the hon. Gentleman is saying that if APD were devolved to Scotland, the SNP in the...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can expand the hon. Gentleman's thinking. If we were to grow from four non-EU routes to 10...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c465 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman moves on to other things, I wonder whether he might say a bit more about t...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Lady seems to support devolving air passenger duty to Wales. Perhaps that co...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c464 (Link to this contribution) We have airports in Kent. Why should we not have regionalisation of APD for all regional airports? W...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I hope he will join me in the Lobby, because if it is good en...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c464 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but there is no time. [Hon. Members: ““Ooh!””] If I have time later and the hon. Gentlema...

Graham Stuart | 543 c424 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend.

Andrew George | 543 c424 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have put my name to the new clause. Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the anomaly in areas such...

Graham Stuart | 543 c424 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the hon. Gentleman may be right. As I was saying, there is the supply chain and manufac...

Alan Reid | 543 c424 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making his case eloquently. In my area, which is a large, rural, coastal area,...

Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c425 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. What would he say to a dealer and park operator in my co...

Graham Stuart | 543 c425 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, although properly designated permanent homes will continue to b...

Chris Bryant | 543 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that in some cases people will not be making choices but will ...

Graham Stuart | 543 c424 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. That is why the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) has a fair poi...

Greg Knight | 543 c425 (Link to this contribution) There is a lot to be said on the issue, so does my hon. Friend agree that the Government would be wi...

Graham Stuart | 543 c425 (Link to this contribution) In truth, if we were starting with a blank sheet the tax system would look nothing like it does toda...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c426 (Link to this contribution) Order. A large number of Members wish to participate in this debate, which ends in one hour. I ask M...

Karl Turner | 543 c426 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to new clause 6. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness ...

Helen Goodman | 543 c426 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that a Budget which increases taxes on static caravans and pasties, but cu...

Karl Turner | 543 c427 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The Government's impact assessment suggests that sales wil...

Graham Stuart | 543 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. Having secured from the Chancellor an absolute commitment that there ...

Stephen Gilbert | 543 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes an accurate point. Pasty producers tell me that they are already feeling the squ...

Sheryll Murray | 543 c427 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the small bakeries in our town centres and villages are keeping or he...

Stephen Gilbert | 543 c427 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to new clause 5, in my name and the names of all Cornish MPs. We have a Cornish coalit...

Alison Seabeck | 543 c427 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we also have a pasty industry in Devon. He is talking about ...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 543 c429 (Link to this contribution) I wholly support the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, and does he agree with me that t...

Ben Bradshaw | 543 c429 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree. The Government, in their consultation document, claim that the impact of the ch...

Ben Bradshaw | 543 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support new clause 7 in my name and those of several other right hon. and hon. Members. T...

Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c428 (Link to this contribution) In my constituency, the Subway franchisee sells cold sandwiches without VAT and must charge VAT when...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c428 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is not brief enough and interventions should ask a question.

Diana Johnson | 543 c431 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. Has he seen today's report that 43 people in...

David Davis | 543 c430-1 (Link to this contribution) I want to associate myself with the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorksh...

Jonathan Ashworth | 543 c430 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, and I suppose I should declare an interest as ...

David Davis | 543 c431 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a powerful point that I am not unfamiliar with. We have all been in similar batt...

Alex Cunningham | 543 c431 (Link to this contribution) Chris and Helen Brown set up the Drovers Way holiday caravan park in my constituency just two years ...

Albert Owen | 543 c431 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). Although I a...

Chris Ruane | 543 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem relates not only to static caravans, but to mobile carava...

Albert Owen | 543 c431 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The people who have contacted me on this issue are not natural L...

David Morris | 543 c432 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Albert Owen | 543 c432 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I am referring specifically to static caravan...

Albert Owen | 543 c432 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way again; I have already given way twice and I want to finish my point. People who...

Gordon Henderson | 543 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) I should like to draw to the Government's attention a couple of anomalies in the VAT rules that they...

Mark Garnier | 543 c433 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be interested to hear that the written evidence given to the Treasury Committee b...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c435 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I just let Members who wish to speak know that I need to give the Minister time to reply ...

Gordon Henderson | 543 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that that proposal is nonsense, but I want to mo...

Andrew George | 543 c434 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman will be supporting new clause 5. As he knows, no one eats fish ...

Gordon Henderson | 543 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) I can only agree with it. I accept that there is an argument for trying to address the current situ...

Peter Bottomley | 543 c436 (Link to this contribution) Would it be appropriate for the Minister to say whether the Government consulted the Churches' Legis...

Gordon Marsden | 543 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I pay tribute to his work as chairman of ...

Lord Beith | 543 c435 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust, which is restoring a Catholic churc...

Gordon Marsden | 543 c435 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak principally to new clause 7, but, in passing, I associate myself with the remarks of...

Gordon Marsden | 543 c436 (Link to this contribution) It would be absolutely appropriate, not least because there seems to have been scant consultation wi...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 543 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) I believe that there is a great deal in the Budget to applaud and support, but on this issue I wholl...

Richard Graham | 543 c437 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the churches and the cathedrals across the land play a vital ro...

Andrew Percy | 543 c438-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the comments that have been made by my right hon. and hon. Friends from across Eas...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c438 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind Members that I will turn to the Minister at 7.40, which means that I will stop the M...

David Gauke | 543 c439 (Link to this contribution) We have had a thoughtful and impassioned debate this evening, and I am pleased to have the opportuni...

Frank Dobson | 543 c439 (Link to this contribution) As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on historic places of worship, I have been approac...

Ian Lucas | 543 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak in support of new clause 2, which stands in my name. It deals with a long-standing c...

Lord Soames of Fletching | 543 c437 (Link to this contribution) They do all those things, but they are also places that represent the spirit of England down the cen...

Alan Reid | 543 c438 (Link to this contribution) Skiing is an important industry in the highlands of Scotland, and I am delighted at this tax cut.

Dan Rogerson | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Dan Rogerson | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

David Gauke | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) No. As I said, I am not going to give way very often. Those arguments have not always been successf...

Edward Leigh | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way on that point?

David Gauke | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am about to make a point about it. We have increased the funding for the listed places of wo...

Edward Leigh | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) On that point, will my hon. Friend give way?

David Gauke | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) No, I really want to make some progress. None of that has been changed by the Budget announcement. ...

Edward Leigh | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

David Gauke | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal now with listed buildings. There are some areas of confusion. The fact is that repairs a...

Lord Mann | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c467 (Link to this contribution) I shall keep my remarks brief in order to give other Members an opportunity to speak. I have listene...

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 543 c467 (Link to this contribution) I have a small airport, Durham Tees Valley airport, in my constituency. The problem with air passeng...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c468 (Link to this contribution) I was going to make a far longer speech on the probing amendments that I have tabled, but I shall be...

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 543 c468 (Link to this contribution) This is an important issue for airports outside the south-east of England. We should pursue a course...

Bob Stewart | 543 c468 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 543 c468 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, as I do not have much time. Will the Minister look into whether there is a way...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) As I have pointed out, our proposal would benefit the south-east of England as well as Scotland. Sur...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but given the time I will take no further interventions. Three airports support the dev...

Lord Wilson of Sedgefield | 543 c466 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chloe Smith | 543 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank hon. Members for the breadth, and the brevity, of their comments in the debate, and I shall ...

Bob Stewart | 543 c469 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Chloe Smith | 543 c469 (Link to this contribution) Extremely briefly.

Bob Stewart | 543 c469 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I have just one thing to add to the argument—that there are small airports in ...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c469 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I heard what the Minister said about looking again at the whole issue of devolution. Does s...

Chloe Smith | 543 c469 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fine point, and I acknowledge it in what I am saying about the regional aspec...

Chloe Smith | 543 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) In brief, all taxation is, of course, kept under review. If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will proc...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c416 (Link to this contribution) I am almost disappointed that I took that intervention, if that is the best that the hon. Gentleman ...

Matt Hancock | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady and to the shadow Chancellor for encouraging her to give way. I have ...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Ed Balls | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) No, no—always take him.

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) No.

Matt Hancock | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady give way?

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) The interests of fish and chip shops have been raised on a number of occasions in this debate, and I...

Brandon Lewis | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Chancellor is quite right. Does the hon. Lady not agree that in removing this VAT anomaly...

Ed Balls | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) You've had too many pasties.

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c414-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Roger. That gives me the opportunity to repeat, for those unable to hear because of t...

Roger Gale | 543 c414 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. Will Members leaving the Chamber please do so quietly?...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the pasty industry is looking on as we speak and will want to know exactly which MPs ...

Lord Redwood | 543 c415 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Lady at all worried that the fine reputation of the pasty will be damaged by so many MPs...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c414 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Roger Gale | 543 c409 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. The Committee having divided: ...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c414 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow some excellent speeches. As we heard earlier, the harsh reality of the Bu...

Roger Gale | 543 c414 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: new clause 2—Review of VAT Exemption for s...

Owen Smith | 543 c409 (Link to this contribution) There are still 1 million unemployed young people in this country. That is the highest rate since re...

Mark Hoban | 543 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) I think shareholders are well aware that bonus pools affect banks' profitability and the amount that...

Albert Owen | 543 c420 (Link to this contribution) Another consequence of the tax is that those who currently buy caravans to use as second homes would...

Peter Aldous | 543 c420 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that issue in a moment. My second point is that HMRC's analysis fails to take accou...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 543 c420 (Link to this contribution) In my part of north Wales, the projected 30% drop in sales shown by the Government's own figures wil...

Alan Johnson | 543 c421 (Link to this contribution) I join the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) in supporting new clause 6, and I wish to make a f...

Roger Gale | 543 c418 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady again. The hon. Lady must be heard, and she really shou...

Peter Aldous | 543 c419-20 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be called to speak. I shall restrict my comments to new clause 6 and the proposed a...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c419 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly surprised to hear that from the hon. Gentleman. All I wanted to do in raising this par...

David Morris | 543 c418 (Link to this contribution) I can tell the hon. Lady of a loophole that has needed closing for many years. Although it is possib...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c418 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Roger. I will do my best to bring my remarks to a speedy conclusion so that others ca...

Ben Wallace | 543 c417 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will know that Kilmarnock has some of the best fish and chip shops in Scotland. If she...

Lord Beith | 543 c417 (Link to this contribution) Am I to understand from what the hon. Lady is saying that the Labour party is making a costed commit...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c418 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I want to give plenty of opportunity for Back Benchers...

Julie Hilling | 543 c418 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree with John Carr, the managing director of Carr's pasties in Bolton, that wh...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c416-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes a good point, and it will be interesting to see how she votes at the end of the ...

Anne Main | 543 c416 (Link to this contribution) In successful pasty shops such as Pengenna's in Bude, the pasties come out of the oven and people ea...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c417 (Link to this contribution) I will give way—I was going to say ““to my hon. Friend””, but he is actually my former colleague fro...

Diana Johnson | 543 c422 (Link to this contribution) As a Hull MP, I wish to stress that we are facing job losses in so many private sector businesses, f...

Alan Johnson | 543 c422 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right because, on the Treasury's assessment, more than 1,000 jobs are going to be ...

Graham Stuart | 543 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) It is my pleasure to follow the other speakers. Like all those who have spoken so far, apart from th...

Glyn Davies | 543 c423 (Link to this contribution) I associate myself with the concern that my hon. Friend is showing and that many of my constituents ...

Karl Turner | 543 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend will know, I have three such manufacturers in my constituency. One of the bi...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 543 c423 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening very carefully to my hon. Friend. Is he concerned that, as in my constituency,...

Graham Stuart | 543 c423 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. We have heard examples of managing directors of companies being called in b...

Andrew Gwynne | 543 c423 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an eloquent case regarding the supply chain, which is indeed spread rig...

Owen Smith | 543 c395 (Link to this contribution) That would be entirely consistent. The Minister knows that our amendment merely asks the Chancellor ...

Andrew Gwynne | 543 c395 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a compelling case. May I share with him the figures that I have obtained fr...

Owen Smith | 543 c395-6 (Link to this contribution) It absolutely does. On Monday night, I put it to the Chancellor that he and those on his Front Bench...

Alun Cairns | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) It has been said in the previous debate as well as in this one how cautious the Chancellor rightly n...

Owen Smith | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I recognise that. I also recognise the Ernst and Young ITEM club, which uses precisely the same...

Brandon Lewis | 543 c394 (Link to this contribution) To return to the bank levy, the hon. Gentleman has referred again to the potential reintroduction of...

Seema Malhotra | 543 c394 (Link to this contribution) We all agree that the financial services industry is vital for our economy and that we want it to re...

Owen Smith | 543 c394 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that Chancellors have to keep things under review. In a period of fiscal austerity such ...

Mark Durkan | 543 c395 (Link to this contribution) The amendment represents an attempt to make the bank levy a more articulate tax by incorporating a p...

Owen Smith | 543 c395 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. She is talking about the values and priorities that I mentioned at the begi...

Lord Redwood | 543 c401 (Link to this contribution) I remind hon. Members that I am an adviser to an industrial company and a small investment managemen...

Sheila Gilmore | 543 c400-1 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely. I saw clearly, in my city, the follow-through of that financial stimulus. It was...

Owen Smith | 543 c401 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me this opportunity to clarify the wording—[Int...

Nigel Mills | 543 c399 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that targeting a payroll tax at one industry is not a particularly coheren...

Karen Bradley | 543 c399 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. Financial services are an incredibly important part of our ...

Sheila Gilmore | 543 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) This debate has clearly demonstrated that Members have very different views on how to tackle the cur...

Jack Dromey | 543 c400 (Link to this contribution) The Government's own figures show that house building is down and homelessness is up. In 2008, a Lab...

Karen Bradley | 543 c398 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to exactly that point. It is, in fact, a revenue-raiser. We need to return to the quest...

Adrian Bailey | 543 c398 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the hon. Lady's argument. What impact does she think the bank levy has had on ...

Karen Bradley | 543 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) My point is that it is not the Government's job to try to drive the level of bonuses. The last Gover...

Nigel Mills | 543 c398 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the bank payroll tax has morphed from its original role of reducing b...

Karen Bradley | 543 c398 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree about the contradiction. If it is suggested to the banks that the rate of tax will be...

Mark Durkan | 543 c398 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Lady not just contradicted what she said a couple of minutes ago? She suggested then th...

Karen Bradley | 543 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. Clearly 50% of nothing is not as much as 45% of something, It is important for us ...

Karen Bradley | 543 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to contribute to the debate on how we should tax our banks. First, it is impo...

Nigel Mills | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Owen Smith | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) No. We think that would generate significant revenues, which could be used to create youth jobs to ...

Roger Gale | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) Order. I assumed the Chair in anticipation and excitement at the prospect of listening to the debate...

Owen Smith | 543 c396 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Sir Roger. I am bringing my remarks to a conclusion. The amendment we have tabled is...

Mark Durkan | 543 c408 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to ask about a previous point that the Minister made. He said that he hoped there would be ...

Alun Cairns | 543 c405 (Link to this contribution) If the motivation behind the bonus tax is to tax those who have acted irresponsibly, would the hon. ...

Adrian Bailey | 543 c405 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we should. Perhaps we should introduce a tax on certain members or major funders of the Cons...

Lord Watts | 543 c405 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not think that it a bit ironic that people who are suggesting that the previous ...

Adrian Bailey | 543 c405 (Link to this contribution) I have often made the same point myself. I was on the Government Benches at the time of the so-calle...

Lord Redwood | 543 c405 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman has experienced some memory loss on that point, because I can remember bo...

Adrian Bailey | 543 c406 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the right hon. Gentleman introduced a paper on reducing regulation which subsequently...

Mark Hoban | 543 c406-8 (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate and the clause and schedule that we are debating legislate for a chang...

Mark Hoban | 543 c408 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to deal with the point that the hon. Gentleman made. It is clear that the bank payroll t...

Adrian Bailey | 543 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in the debate, but I felt it was necessary to contribute to try and coun...

Lord Redwood | 543 c404 (Link to this contribution) Many people would think that the outgoing Government had a lot of responsibility for the crash, alon...

Lord Redwood | 543 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) Well, I think we are very grateful for that clarification. We await the details that, unfortunately,...

Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c402 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman glosses over the fact that the banking system has two distinct components. ...

Lord Redwood | 543 c401 (Link to this contribution) It is worth teasing these things out, because I think we have had confirmation from the Opposition t...

Owen Smith | 543 c401 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, either the right hon. Gentleman misunderstood what I said or he is delibe...

Lord Redwood | 543 c403 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I expressed any confidence on the subject at all. The hon. Gentleman, the Government ...

Lord Watts | 543 c404 (Link to this contribution) Is it not right that the people who caused financial problems and hardship for many families and cre...

Lord Redwood | 543 c402-3 (Link to this contribution) If it were that easy to make the distinction and to close down or punish the one and reward or encou...

George Mudie | 543 c403 (Link to this contribution) I do not share the right hon. Gentleman's confidence that the banks are so optimistic, and that they...

Lord Redwood | 543 c389 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

Owen Smith | 543 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) That would have been a good intervention, were it not for the fact that the £3.5 billion that was re...

Stephen Williams | 543 c388 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Minister said that the figure of just over £1 billion being lost because of behavioural c...

Owen Smith | 543 c388 (Link to this contribution) The Minister gives the lie to the argument that the Government have made about this figure, which al...

Lord Redwood | 543 c389 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman reads the Red Book further, he will see that £4 billion-plus more a year will ...

Owen Smith | 543 c389 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right that there would have been behavioural impacts. We do not dispute ...

Lord Redwood | 543 c389 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Minister is not completing the thought. We are not disputing the gross amount. We are ask...

Owen Smith | 543 c389 (Link to this contribution) Yes.

Mark Hoban | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman against the rate going up or in favour of it?

Owen Smith | 543 c389-90 (Link to this contribution) At the danger of being ruled out of order for repeating today's earlier debates—[Interruption.] The ...

Owen Smith | 543 c386 (Link to this contribution) I would be terribly happy for all the banks, including RBS and HBOS, to make more profit. That would...

Owen Smith | 543 c386-7 (Link to this contribution) I will keep going for a moment and then happily give way. The bank levy currently impacts on banks ...

Alun Cairns | 543 c386 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mark Hoban | 543 c387 (Link to this contribution) May I point out that the previous Government ruled out a bank levy because they did not want to intr...

Owen Smith | 543 c387 (Link to this contribution) May I take this opportunity, Sir Roger, to apologise to you, to the Minister and to the House for mi...

Mark Hoban | 543 c387 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that the VAT changes will raise as much as the bank levy. If he looks at tab...

Owen Smith | 543 c388 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I have been getting my facts right all afternoon: it is Government Members who have...

Mark Hoban | 543 c387 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman looks at page 50 of the Red Book, he will realise that he is still £1 billion ...

Mark Hoban | 543 c388 (Link to this contribution) Gross.

Owen Smith | 543 c375 (Link to this contribution) Labour Members do not believe that the cut from 50p to 45p is good for the economy, and we do not th...

David Gauke | 543 c375 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hood. As I was saying, there has been a 29% increase in the number of Britons given p...

Lord Redwood | 543 c386 (Link to this contribution) Does the shadow Minister think that the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds HBOS need less profit and ...

Owen Smith | 543 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood—the first chance that I have had to say t...

Jim Hood | 543 c385 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part and schedule 33 stand part.

Owen Smith | 543 c385 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 5, page 121, line 19, at end add—

Jim Hood | 543 c385 (Link to this contribution) This is the second time that I have had to deal with a point like this and that is not a point of or...

Yvette Cooper | 543 c384 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Hood. Have you had any indication whether the Home Secretary will come to th...

Owen Smith | 543 c375-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not think I have time to give way, as I want to press the amendment to a Division. Nor do I th...

Andrew Love | 543 c373 (Link to this contribution) The Minister quotes research that is primarily associated with the United States rather than the Uni...

David Gauke | 543 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not have much time, so I would be grateful to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) if he woul...

David Gauke | 543 c374 (Link to this contribution) We have a report that produces evidence. I can also assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government ha...

Mark Durkan | 543 c374 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said that the Chancellor wants to work on an evidence basis. He has previously told...

Chris Bryant | 543 c373 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Hood. You may not be aware of it, but the media are reporting that, contrary...

David Gauke | 543 c373 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right that the assessment of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, signed off by ...

David Gauke | 543 c373 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hood. To return to the matter in hand—

Jim Hood | 543 c373 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have heard enough of the hon. Member's contribution to give him a ruling. That is not a poi...

Owen Smith | 543 c393-4 (Link to this contribution) By and large I would agree with the hon. Gentleman. Tax policy ought to be predictable. Indeed, the ...

Michael Connarty | 543 c394 (Link to this contribution) We would all agree—hopefully one day Governments and Chancellors will also agree—that we should not ...

Owen Smith | 543 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Sir Roger, although I found that debate terribly entertaining. [Interruption.]...

Owen Smith | 543 c393 (Link to this contribution) I shall keep going for a moment. That is before we consider the actual tax cuts being introduced in...

Stephen Williams | 543 c393 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that banks will all get a tax cut because of the reductions in corporation t...

Owen Smith | 543 c393 (Link to this contribution) I would not dispute that for a moment. Many of the banks are under water and so will not end up payi...

Nigel Mills | 543 c393 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need a predictable tax system, so that investors can understan...

Owen Smith | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman ought to read some of the Budget documentation. The Government have not closed an...

Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) I find it tiresome that while the overwhelming majority of my constituents, who are ordinary working...

Owen Smith | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) As is in the Bill, they have also cut a deal with Switzerland that allows people avoiding tax by put...

Alun Cairns | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) I am astounded by the Opposition's attitude, particularly given that their major party donor used to...

Owen Smith | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady explain which anti-avoidance measure Labour Members voted against? I tell her ver...

Michael Connarty | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that since they came to power the Government have had the ability to forbid ...

Owen Smith | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) The debate on the 50p rate was interesting in that it revealed the differing attitudes of Opposition...

Karen Bradley | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) If the Labour party is so keen on stopping tax avoidance, will he explain why Labour Members voted a...

Kelvin Hopkins | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) implies that paying tax is voluntary, but surely ...

Brandon Lewis | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it was a mistake to introduce a bonus tax that was not only a one...

Brandon Lewis | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman clarify what he said because he has not answered my point, which was not abo...

Owen Smith | 543 c391 (Link to this contribution) If Labour had won the election, it may have changed its view and continued the bank bonus tax. The O...

Mark Hoban | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) He's all over the place.

Owen Smith | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) No, you're all over the place, with the greatest respect, as this car crash of a Budget has shown no...

Baroness Brown of Silvertown | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) I have been reading the media reports too, and I have been astonished to find the Prime Minister cal...

Owen Smith | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that he is a dilettante, but I certainly think he does not pay terribly much attention...

Owen Smith | 543 c390 (Link to this contribution) I am absolutely not against the rate going up. My question is about the Government's competence and ...

David Gauke | 543 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Let us put away some of the rhetoric that we have heard this aft...

Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that the Opposition are missing the point by talking about the amount that w...

Owen Smith | 543 c371 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has repeated the line that the 50p rate was not getting the money in. What exactly does...

David Gauke | 543 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman cites the report; let me give him the full quote. On page 2, the summary gives th...

David Gauke | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wants to make a correction.

Owen Smith | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) I simply want to ask the question one more time. If the yield was less than £1 billion, how much les...

David Gauke | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) The central estimate, which the OBR has confirmed, is £700 million. We are reducing the rate to 45%,...

Mark Reckless | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) I think the Minister is being rather too modest. On page 21, the report states that"““most of the st...

David Gauke | 543 c372 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to say that we have taken a cautious approach to this matter. Indeed, many e...

David Gauke | 543 c371 (Link to this contribution) As we all know, the previous Government were reluctant to take any meaningful steps to reduce the de...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c370-1 (Link to this contribution) That is a really interesting question. In practice, it is incredibly difficult to distinguish betwee...

Mark Reckless | 543 c370 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has substantial expertise as a tax lawyer. Does he think that a ““look-through”” anti...

Mark Durkan | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman trying to tell the Committee that none of those schemes or scams will happen u...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) With the 45% rate, there is less utility and less maximisation of revenue from doing so. Of course, ...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) I will give the Committee an example. Let us say that I earn £150,000. Obviously, as a Member of Par...

Owen Smith | 543 c370 (Link to this contribution) I have already answered that three times in this debate, so I am not going to repeat myself. Yes, th...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c370 (Link to this contribution) The Business Secretary is well known for having strong and principled positions from which he never ...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c370 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman one more time, but I would ask him to say whether it was alway...

Harriett Baldwin | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) Tax lawyer even. Was he as surprised as I was at the £16 billion to £18 billion of forestalling meas...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) Lawyer.

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) Very much so. My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is also in the OBR report. These are the foresta...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes that assertion. Let us consider the detail of what the OBR says, leaving as...

Alison McGovern | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman tell us exactly how many people have left the country? If so, what is his so...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) I am simply reporting what the OBR has said. I will not pretend that I am an expert on immigration t...

Harriett Baldwin | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to my hon. Friend's excellent speech with great interest because of his expertise as ...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing me on to my next point. The hon. Member for Pontypridd is fo...

Michael Connarty | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) We can all pick selectively from the OBR report—I have referred to it quite a few times—but this is ...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c367-8 (Link to this contribution) I completely disagree. The Government are doing a great job. We have had the most difficult year, in...

Stewart Hosie | 543 c365 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right, but I want to be careful in answering. It is not good enough to say that p...

Alison McGovern | 543 c365 (Link to this contribution) In addition to those comments, does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a geographical dimension?...

Stewart Hosie | 543 c363-5 (Link to this contribution) We back amendment 1. As the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said, it is the only way in whic...

Alun Cairns | 543 c363 (Link to this contribution) It was quite obviously an economic judgment, but we cannot ignore the politics, which is what intern...

Owen Smith | 543 c367 (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Gentleman that getting the country growing is the most importan...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c366-7 (Link to this contribution) Much of the discussion on the 50p rate has been on whether it is an economic decision or a political...

Stewart Hosie | 543 c365-6 (Link to this contribution) The points on business investment are incredibly well made. The Government's targets were based on h...

Michael Connarty | 543 c365 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has set out the figures for the overarching macro-economic situation very well, b...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c357-8 (Link to this contribution) That may well be the case. However, if a Government have to make that decision—and, yes, there are o...

Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c357 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and sorry for interrupting him mid-sentence, but ...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c357 (Link to this contribution) I do agree, but if the hon. Gentleman had been listening he would have heard that the economic case—...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c357 (Link to this contribution) Yes.

Alun Cairns | 543 c359 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's point. In fairness to him, he has presented a respectable vie...

Alun Cairns | 543 c358-9 (Link to this contribution) That is clearly not the situation, as I will seek to demonstrate in the next few minutes. The start...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c359 (Link to this contribution) If the politics is not wrong, why was the policy not in the Tory manifesto in 2010, and why has the ...

Alun Cairns | 543 c358 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hood, for calling me to contribute to this debate on amendment 1. It is a privilege to...

Andrew Love | 543 c358 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the message of this Budget is, ““We're all in this together exce...

Karl McCartney | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) Later, I will be as generous as the hon. Gentleman was if hon. Members will let me get through some ...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think we are having a few too many interventions. I say to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chr...

Karl McCartney | 543 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hoyle for letting me continue. I feel I ought to correct what might be an untruth: I d...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c355-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks whether I am sure. The record is open to scrutiny. In local government in No...

Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c357 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Owen Smith | 543 c354 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Karl McCartney | 543 c354 (Link to this contribution) Not at this point. It has been interesting—and would be again—to hear from the Chancellor or his Mi...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c354 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it clear that my party is not a party of high taxation. We do not wish to see people squ...

Michael Ellis | 543 c354 (Link to this contribution) Are you sure?

Owen Smith | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) In the interests of consistency, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he agrees that there is gross ...

Alun Cairns | 543 c361-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because I can answer him directly. Exactl...

Alun Cairns | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) If my remark caused offence to any Opposition Member, I will happily withdraw it. To rephrase what I...

Owen Smith | 543 c362 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because I did not get a chance to say this earli...

Alun Cairns | 543 c362 (Link to this contribution) There are uncertainties about the drafting of any Budget at any time. There will be uncertainties in...

Owen Smith | 543 c362 (Link to this contribution) I just want to point out that we know how much money was raised by the 50% rate. That is not in disp...

Alun Cairns | 543 c362 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is missing the point. The increase from 40% to 50% raised only a third of what wa...

Andrew Love | 543 c363 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman rightly says that because of the uncertainty about all these figures, the Chancel...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c362 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an incredibly forceful and passionate argument. The hon. Member for Pontypr...

Alun Cairns | 543 c363 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend obviously makes an extremely strong point. It underlines the argument that the last C...

Owen Smith | 543 c359 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, I have absolutely no idea what his last sentence me...

Alun Cairns | 543 c359 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman is extremely selective in whom he quotes and when he quote...

Alun Cairns | 543 c360 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. Once again, he makes a cutting point that exposes the we...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c360 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what Government Members are saying is causing the lack of investment. Is it the situat...

Alun Cairns | 543 c360-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would recognise that there is no silver bullet. I suggest that the...

Owen Smith | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that there is no envy on my part of him or other Government Memb...

Alun Cairns | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has repeated that by ““temporary””, the Opposition mean eight years and that it c...

Alison McGovern | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Hood. I believe that the hon. Gentleman referred to my hon. Friend the Membe...

Jim Hood | 543 c361 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. It is not a point of order for the Chair if an opinion...

Christopher Chope | 543 c349 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. He may be of an age to recall what happened ...

Mark Durkan | 543 c349 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman also hope to have clarification from the Government of why, if the measure i...

Christopher Chope | 543 c348 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a series of good points that are recognised in the HMRC document to which I hav...

Mark Field | 543 c347-8 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend concerned that the estimate is likely to be somewhat conservative? Many people are...

Mark Reckless | 543 c347 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that the estimates of administrative and staff costs the Government have...

Christopher Chope | 543 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) Dr Laffer did not bring any visual aids with him; he was able to command his audience without them. ...

Owen Smith | 543 c346 (Link to this contribution) When Dr Laffer attended the dinner at the Guildhall, did he bring with him the famous cocktail napki...

Christopher Chope | 543 c346 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it is necessary for me to speak to amendment 1 because my hon. Friend the Member for ...

Chris Bryant | 543 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am really impressed by the hon. Lady. I can understand how my hon. Friend the Member for Wir...

Chris Bryant | 543 c345 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman cannot have another go, but the hon. Lady can.

Andrea Leadsom | 543 c345 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I want to draw his attention and that of the hon. Member f...

Chris Bryant | 543 c345 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In fact, I think she must have been reading my notes, which were...

Alison McGovern | 543 c345 (Link to this contribution) May I draw my hon. Friend back to his remark about the ethics of this issue? The ethics of whether p...

Chris Bryant | 543 c344 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way to the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) again—[Interrupt...

Stewart Hosie | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way now?

Karl McCartney | 543 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) Not at this stage. Thirdly, the 50p tax rate was designed to be something that any new Government w...

Stewart Hosie | 543 c352 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Karl McCartney | 543 c352 (Link to this contribution) Not on purpose. We were told during the dying days of the previous Labour Government that the 50p t...

Karl McCartney | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) No, I certainly will not at this stage.

Alison McGovern | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Karl McCartney | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) In a minute. One hopes that the Labour party knows and realises that the 50p tax rate it introduced...

Chris Bryant | 543 c352 (Link to this contribution) You broke my leg.

Karl McCartney | 543 c352 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), the hon. Mem...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. I am coming to that. Unfortunately, the papers did not report L...

David Gauke | 543 c350 (Link to this contribution) May I help the hon. Gentleman? The motion on which he voted against the Government related to the ta...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c350 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the hon. Gentleman read the leaked e-mails from Labour insiders the following day, which w...

Stephen Williams | 543 c351 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recall that 12 months ago there was a similar set of circumstances, when the...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c350-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification. The idea that the Tories would offer a tax break to millionai...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c351 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. The hon. Gentleman is of course right. It is a matter of record...

Chris Bryant | 543 c351 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that I am very fond of him, so may I give him a tip? It is not to believe w...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c351 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for confirming that we are more efficient than the official Oppo...

Owen Smith | 543 c350 (Link to this contribution) Just to clarify, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) made plain, we had alre...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hoyle, and to contribute to the...

Chris Bryant | 543 c342 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with the economic case, but this is where I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Lady id...

Alun Cairns | 543 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a powerful point in comparing the incomes of people in his constituency ...

Chris Bryant | 543 c343 (Link to this contribution) I do not want a 50p rate to last for ever and I accept that the City of London plays a very importan...

Chris Bryant | 543 c343 (Link to this contribution) Just one moment. However, I say to Government Members that if they do that, they will further exacer...

Chris Bryant | 543 c343 (Link to this contribution) If hon. Members bear with me, I will give way. I have already promised to give way to the hon. Membe...

Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c343-4 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for stopping the hon. Gentleman in mid-flow on two occasions, but I would like to ask hi...

Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c344 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech and some serious points. He talks about the relativ...

Chris Bryant | 543 c344 (Link to this contribution) Broadly speaking, of course I agree with the hon. Gentleman; a very high tax rate could act as a dis...

Chris Bryant | 543 c342 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Member for South West Norfolk, because I referred to her directly.

Chris Bryant | 543 c341-2 (Link to this contribution) That is way above my pay grade. I am just speaking for myself in this regard, and I hope that hon. M...

Mark Reckless | 543 c341 (Link to this contribution) I commend the hon. Gentleman on what he says and associate myself fully with his remarks. May I ask ...

Chris Bryant | 543 c341 (Link to this contribution) I do not entirely disagree with the hon. Gentleman. However, if the Government want to take the coun...

Chris Bryant | 543 c341 (Link to this contribution) Broadly speaking, yes, I do, just as I supported making the Bank of England independent at a time wh...

Andrea Leadsom | 543 c341 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman therefore join Members on my side of the House in applauding the Government ...

Chris Bryant | 543 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in this debate, but the previous—[Interruption.] I am grateful for all t...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c342 (Link to this contribution) The point that the hon. Gentleman makes is a political one. Is not the crucial issue here the econom...

Mark Reckless | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that because the situation is uncertain, the 50p rate might have ...

Owen Smith | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) I hate to say it, but it is worse than that. What happened is that the Chancellor made up his mind, ...

Andrew Love | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) There appears to be an emerging cross-party consensus that there is great uncertainty in this area. ...

Harriett Baldwin | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that his party's next manifesto will contain a pledge to restore the ...

Owen Smith | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) Yes, for the last time.

Harriett Baldwin | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Owen Smith | 543 c336 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many times I need to keep telling the hon. Gentleman this, but the simple answer i...

Owen Smith | 543 c338 (Link to this contribution) I am thrilled to have given way to the Minister, because his intervention has revealed that, althoug...

David Gauke | 543 c338 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has referred to the academic debate. May I refer him to page 20 of the HMRC docum...

Owen Smith | 543 c336-7 (Link to this contribution) When we get close enough to the next election to write our manifesto, we will write it, and the hon....

Andrew Love | 543 c338 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that the IFS study that is cited so regularly by Government Members refers t...

Mark Reckless | 543 c339 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful case for the merits of a 40p top rate of tax. Will she therefore sup...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c339 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see the back of the 50p tax rate. Of all the shallow, politically motivated activi...

Sheila Gilmore | 543 c339 (Link to this contribution) How can people postponing their income from one tax year to another, but nevertheless presumably sti...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c339 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure whether their amendment expresses what they wanted it to express. As with the HM...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c339 (Link to this contribution) When income is artificially moved from one year to the next, it is not properly used for investing i...

Harriett Baldwin | 543 c340 (Link to this contribution) Did my hon. Friend share my shock at hearing the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman arguing that the s...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c340 (Link to this contribution) It was the highest income tax rate in the G20. We heard earlier from the Opposition spokesman that L...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c340 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and perhaps some Opposition Front-Bench Members should move to France, where they might find th...

Mark Field | 543 c335 (Link to this contribution) I entirely appreciate that the hon. Gentleman's case applies to all sides—that there is much uncerta...

Mark Field | 543 c335 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will recall that when, in November 2008—for the first time and 11 and a half year...

Owen Smith | 543 c335 (Link to this contribution) No, and I shall get into the technicalities in my response, if I may. When the 45p rate was initiall...

David Lammy | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has done a very good job of demonstrating that the Government are not at all clear on...

Owen Smith | 543 c334-5 (Link to this contribution) Again, I am pleased that I gave way, as I think that is an excellent suggestion, which we really sho...

Owen Smith | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) I have already pointed out three times that it was a pork pie, including to the hon. Member for Roch...

Owen Smith | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to a Welsh colleague.

Alun Cairns | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile his enthusiasm for the 50% rate with the view o...

Owen Smith | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) The 50p rate was introduced, as I said earlier, when we were in the depths of the biggest global rec...

Chris Bryant | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the shadow Minister has referred to several things that are uncertain, but has it not...

Owen Smith | 543 c333 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman has just heard my answer. Throughout this Parliament, we would not have done ...

Owen Smith | 543 c333 (Link to this contribution) No, there is more from the Chancellor. Conservative Members ought to listen to this, because it is t...

Nadhim Zahawi | 543 c333 (Link to this contribution) If we set aside the shadow Minister's amendment, which would leave us with a 40p top rate of tax—[In...

Owen Smith | 543 c333 (Link to this contribution) Yes. Right now, we would not have cut the 50p rate in this Parliament. Full stop. End of. Thank you ...

Alison McGovern | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that we are debating the difference between those of us who do our economi...

Owen Smith | 543 c333 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to say to my hon. Friend that the golden phrase ““expansionary fiscal contraction”” tel...

Andrew Gwynne | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) The information in the report shows that the cost to the Treasury of the tax cut will be £3 billion....

Owen Smith | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) I have absolutely no confidence whatever. My hon. Friend's point goes to the heart of the dodgy econ...

Sammy Wilson | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) Much has been made of the effect of the top rate of tax on revenue and on competitiveness. Given tha...

Owen Smith | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) I knew it would be worthwhile giving way to the Treasury spokesman for the Democratic Unionist party...

Owen Smith | 543 c332 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way at the moment. I want to carry on with my speech, then I will give way ag...

Mark Reckless | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) The document says that all this is highly uncertain. That means that there is a significant possibil...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) I am very pleased that I gave way to the hon. Gentleman. His intervention has exposed the fact that ...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure that the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) has only just walked into the ...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) We should give the hon. Gentleman time to warm up, but if he wants to intervene to tell me where in ...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene on me on the point of competitiveness using evidence or an...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) We do not know—[Laughter.] Conservative Members might laugh, but I would like to see them present so...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman about to—

Graeme Morrice | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. On the basis of the confirmation from the offi...

Owen Smith | 543 c329-30 (Link to this contribution) I will answer the hon. Gentleman's last point first, because I answered it on Monday, too. When we i...

Owen Smith | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) The word ““uncertain”” is used so many times in the various documents that I have lost count. In fac...

Derek Twigg | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) There are a couple of points to make. First, there is no uncertainty that 14,000 millionaires will s...

Owen Smith | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) I do. It is absolutely extraordinary that the Prime Minister should have misled the House in the man...

Elizabeth Truss | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) What impact does the hon. Gentleman think having the highest rate of income tax in the G20 has on th...

Owen Smith | 543 c331 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way again to hear more obscurities of protocol. They are nonsense and are jus...

Owen Smith | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) I suppose that there is a risk of that happening, because the Chancellor has wanted to reduce the ra...

Michael Ellis | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. If he disputes the Government's suggestion that ...

Owen Smith | 543 c328 (Link to this contribution) I will give the Minister one more chance, but I warn him that he will listen to the country, and the...

Owen Smith | 543 c328-9 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to indulge in this procedural nonsense much longer, because frankly the country is in...

David Gauke | 543 c328 (Link to this contribution) The country is aware that Labour did not vote against the change to the 50p rate in our debates on t...

Owen Smith | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) because he reiterates the poin...

Chris Bryant | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour from Pontypridd for giving way. He will know that my c...

Owen Smith | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not going to give way. The Government are the ones who could decide today to put the rate ...

Michael Ellis | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Owen Smith | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) I would be absolutely delighted to confirm that, because we have got it in black and white, in the H...

Graeme Morrice | 543 c329 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has referred to the fact that at Prime Minister's questions today the Prime Minister ...

Owen Smith | 543 c328 (Link to this contribution) No; which is why I wanted to nose off on this point. Let us clear out of the way this obscurantist n...

David Gauke | 543 c328 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but under his amendment there would be two rates...

Owen Smith | 543 c328 (Link to this contribution) But for now I look forward to the intervention that I am about to receive from the Exchequer Secreta...

Owen Smith | 543 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to be under your chairmanship, Mr Hoyle. The legislation we deal with in thi...

Owen Smith | 543 c327 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 1, page 2, line 4, leave out paragraph (c).

David Gauke | 543 c441 (Link to this contribution) I will, very briefly.

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 543 c464 (Link to this contribution) It is not the taxes that are the problem but the level of the taxes, who is controlling them and wha...

Nigel Evans | 543 c451 (Link to this contribution) The question is, that the clause be—[Interruption.] The clause has been moved by another Member, whi...

Stephen Gilbert | 543 c427 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an entirely relevant point. Some 2,000 people in Cornwall are employed directly...

Ben Bradshaw | 543 c430 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is exactly right. As I said, the grant already covers only less than half of the cost...

David Gauke | 543 c440 (Link to this contribution) Let me make a point about the arguments surrounding ambient temperature. This test has been in place...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c467 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point that I was going to make. I understand the strength of feeling in Scotland...

Peter Aldous | 543 c420-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The problem with many second homes is t...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c417 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman patronises many of those chip shops on his regular visits to my pa...

Cathy Jamieson | 543 c417 (Link to this contribution) I have to confess that, the last time I looked at the Labour party manifesto, it did not mention fis...

Alan Johnson | 543 c422 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises a crucial point. I say the following to those on the Treasury Bench: this was ...

Alun Cairns | 543 c397 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recognise that a balance needs to be struck? Banks need to pay their fair share,...

David Gauke | 543 c375 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) Order. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but I cannot hear a word he is saying because of t...

Owen Smith | 543 c394 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of stepping off-piste again and incurring your wrath, Sir Roger, all I would say is that...

Owen Smith | 543 c390-1 (Link to this contribution) One needs to consider these things in the round. We have heard repeatedly from the Government that t...

Chris Bryant | 543 c353 (Link to this contribution) That is very ungenerous to a lady.

Christopher Chope | 543 c347 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. My hon. Friend's excellent point shows the gravity of the complexity that the Government ar...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c351 (Link to this contribution) The issue was not invented there so the Opposition could not vote for it, whereas although I disagre...

Mark Field | 543 c341 (Link to this contribution) I entirely associate myself with the comments made, because the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, ...

Owen Smith | 543 c338 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The key correlation is not between top rates of tax and GDP. There is very little eviden...

Kwasi Kwarteng | 543 c340 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend outline just how uncompetitive the 50p rate was compared with the rates of other...

Owen Smith | 543 c335-6 (Link to this contribution) What I would accept is that the rate was raised to 50p in the end because we felt that there was sti...

Owen Smith | 543 c334 (Link to this contribution) I grateful for that intervention. I am not sure whether the pork pie was served at ambient temperatu...

Jonathan Edwards | 543 c330 (Link to this contribution) The reason that amendment 6 was not selected for debate was that the House had already divided on th...

Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 543 c327 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 76, page 2, line 4, at end inse...

Stephen Gilbert | 543 c428 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point that my hon. Friend is trying to make, but there is a big difference between ...

Ian Lucas | 543 c438 (Link to this contribution) I beg to differ. It will affect one particular sector. It is rather convenient that the Chief Secret...

Graham Stuart | 543 c423 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I am not looking for Ministers to limit th...

Owen Smith | 543 c387 (Link to this contribution) When the IMF first talked about a bank levy, it thought that an equitable, sensible amount to get fr...

Roger Gale | 543 c392 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am beginning to find it a little difficult to relate this debate to amendment 5 or the rela...

Jim Hood | 543 c369 (Link to this contribution) Order. I will not accept this happening across the Committee. Right hon. and hon. Members should kno...

Owen Smith | 543 c368 (Link to this contribution) I will explain to the hon. Gentleman why there is a step from year 1, when we anticipated it would r...

Lord Harrington of Watford | 543 c357 (Link to this contribution) To be clear, that is not what I was asking. I accept that the hon. Gentleman does not believe that t...

Charlie Elphicke | 543 c359 (Link to this contribution) I have a couple of points. I always understood that the issue of the 50p rate was not in our manifes...

Chris Bryant | 543 c344 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Broadly speaking, I agree with elements of what ...

Subjects

Devolved matters Aviation Corporation tax Banks Caravans Air passenger duty Income tax Food Economic situation Personal income Northern Ireland Passengers Scotland Wales Tax avoidance Taxation Repairs and maintenance Tax rates and bands Religious buildings Take-away food Wealth Regional airports Bank levy

Legislation

Finance Bill 2010-12 to 2012-13

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk