---

Debate on the Address

My Lords, I want to place on record that I consider that, in many ways, my noble friend Lord Drayson is a much better defence procurement Minister than I could ever aspire to be—I emphasise in many ways, not in every way, but I am still happy to give him that tribute for a start, because I shall say something rude about his speech in a moment. I congratulate him on the way in which he has got a grip on the defence industrial strategy. I know that he has worked extremely hard and is very highly thought of at the Ministry of Defence. However, one passage in his speech struck me as a little bizarre. I heard him say that he wanted to urge the EU to co-operate more with NATO. The only members of NATO who are not in the EU are the United States, Canada, Norway and Iceland, to my knowledge. What he is urging the EU to do I am not quite clear. He might go back to his speechwriters to remind them that quite a few members of the EU are not in NATO in any case, so that is a piece of nonsense. I hope that I did not hear my noble friend correctly when he was talking about the poppy eradication programme, because I had an assurance from the Dispatch Box a few weeks ago that that would be no part of the responsibility of the coalition forces in Afghanistan, who are merely there to ensure good order, and that it was a matter for the Afghan Government whether they proceeded with a poppy eradication programme. I am deprived of some of my usual targets this evening, I regret to say, because the speeches that I most welcome in your Lordships' House are those that come from the Liberal Democrat Benches, mainly because they are so quaint. I shall proceed, even though the only representative on their Front Bench is the noble Lord, Lord Garden, who talks more sense than the rest of his party put together. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said that he supported the deployment of the EU's resources at long range. Coming from a spokesman of a party which supports the development of an aeroplane called the A400M rather than have the C-17, that struck me as peculiarly quaint, if I may say so. I want to say just a word about the C-17, because this is a defence debate and I was once a procurement Minister. The C-17 is one of the most magnificent planes that has ever been designed or built and I congratulate my noble friend on the fact that the Ministry of Defence has acquired a fifth one. I very much hope that we will have a sixth one before long; that is not idle talk, because it has been talked about by the MoD for many moons. I am also delighted that the Australians have decided to buy the C-17, as have the Canadians. As my noble friend will be aware, there is a very interesting development. I cite the 18 September issue of DefenseNews, which states that "““Thirteen NATO allies are banding together with the intent””—" there is a split definitive here, I fear— "““to collectively purchase C-17 transport aircraft to help the alliance fill its strategic airlift deficit””." What is interesting about that is that the countries signing the letter of intent are Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia and the United States. As far as I can see, the only members of NATO who will not have access to the C-17 are the Spaniards, the Germans, the French and, possibly, the Portuguese, who are all stuck with the A400M programme. Is it not a sad reflection that our major NATO allies in Europe will be deprived of access to what is, in my view, the only serious strategic transport aircraft? As I have said before, I very much hope that Her Majesty’s Government will see a way of releasing resources from the defence budget by coming out of the A400M programme themselves now that BAE Systems has sold its shares in Airbus and no longer has any serious interest in the success of that venture. Unfortunately the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, is not in her seat, although I did tell her that I was going to say something nice about her later this evening. It may surprise your Lordships to know that I agreed very much with what she said about cluster bombs. I think they are a weapon that should be used only in the most restricted of circumstances. I was appalled at the use the Israelis made of them in Lebanon, but I still think they are a legitimate weapon of war. I have always thought of them as an airfield-denial weapon and not as a weapon to be used in civilian areas. I say that as someone who stood up in your Lordships’ House and defended the use of landmines. The noble Baroness also said that we must have a debate on the Trident programme. I can imagine nothing more boring than a debate on that programme because the decision on Trident has already been taken. Everyone knows that. It was actually taken in Paris, not in London. Can anyone in your Lordships’ House imagine a British Prime Minister of any cast of mind or political party saying in the House of Commons, ““Mr Speaker, I wish the House to know that my Government have decided on mature reflection that the Trident weapon system will serve us in good stead for many, many years, but we now wish to release the resources for it for other purposes, and to that end we will be putting the ultimate defence of our island in the hands of our good friends on the other side of the English Channel””? It beggars belief that any British Prime Minister could say that. He might then add, ““I offer our Pakistani citizens the additional reassurance from President Musharraf that their best interests will be served by the Islamic bomb””. No British Prime Minister could survive the ridicule that would follow remarks of that sort. Lastly, I shall say a word about Turkey. The attitude of the international community generally towards Turkey has been disgraceful. The Turks are making enormous efforts to meet the quite proper requirements of the EU on how they handle their social arrangements in Turkey, but it is inexcusable how the international community has discriminated against the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus compared with the way in which it handles the Greek republic of south Cyprus. I am so glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has just arrived in the Chamber. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Garden, will tell her all the nice things I have been saying about her. That is the last thing that I wanted to say. I thank noble Lords for their attention.