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Flood and Water Management Bill

I was present, and I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I did not nod off, but I must have been distracted, because five minutes later I repeated the same question in almost exactly the same form—although possibly in a less critical form than the right hon. Gentleman—and received the same response. Among the firefighters on the ground, the demand for a statutory duty remains. I know that Sir Ken Knight suggested otherwise. I have the greatest respect for Sir Ken Knight, but, having not attended his beatification, I do not believe that he is infallible, and I think that in this instance he got it wrong. I met the FBU executive only a few weeks ago, and I met the general secretary during the past week, and the message has come back time and again that a statutory duty is needed. Let me explain the difference between a power and a statutory duty. I have been a local government officer and a local councillor. I have been involved in the construction of budgets, including fire authority budgets. I have been involved in circumstances in which we had to reduce the number of staff and cut overall expenditure. Any local government officer will tell council members that a statutory duty is stronger than a discretionary power. When councils are faced with the sliding scale of cuts or investment, the recommendation will always tend towards protecting the statutory duty. We all know about the constraints that will be placed on public finances in the coming period. I fear—this point was made on Second Reading as well—that unless a statutory duty is placed on fire and rescue authorities for major flooding, there will be not only the lack of clarity that worried Pitt, but a lack of protection for the long-term investment required for training, staffing and equipment. The process of considering what should go into the Bill and examining what has come out of reports has been handled well, and it is clear that a co-operative and constructive relationship existed in Committee. The Minister has made himself available in response to all requests from hon. Members for meetings with him. Furthermore, for the first time in a long period, we have been given enough time to debate a Bill on Report. That came as something of a shock to a number of us, given the House's current procedures. However, I expect the Minister to say that we are still awaiting the feedback from the analysis of what happened in Cumbria, that co-ordination has plainly improved, and that therefore he is not yet convinced of the need for a statutory duty. Let me say this to the Minister. If he is not convinced tonight, there is a possible way forward. We could do what we have done in other legislation. Rather than missing the opportunity to include some form of statutory duty in the Bill and having to wait for one, two or three years for another piece of primary legislation, we could table an amendment in the House of Lords giving the Secretary of State power by order to include the duty at some later stage, once he or she has become convinced of the necessity for it. That would not require further primary legislation. Delegated legislation, involving either the affirmative or the negative procedure, could enable the Government to act in the light of the latest analysis of what has happened in Cumbria and beyond. We may well receive details of the lessons of Cumbria before the matter reaches the House of Lords, in which case a straightforward amendment or new clause along the lines of the new clause proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud could be tabled there. If that is not possible, at least let us have a fallback position giving the Secretary of State a reserve power to provide for a statutory duty in delegated legislation. I believe that that would allow us to have a robust piece of legislation, responding to the demands presented by the major flood disasters that occur from time to time and reflecting the Pitt recommendations, while giving the Government flexibility to act as and when they saw fit. I fear that if we do not take that opportunity we will live to regret it, and that others may suffer as a result.