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Fraud Bill [HL]

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

673 c1411-58 

Session

2005-06

Department

Attorney General

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Fraud Bill. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 7-EN also published.
Wednesday, 25 May 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 673 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I have a certain amount of material on the issue, which I shall make available to the noble and lear...

Show all contributions (96)

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1455-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, was certainly not flippant on the last occasion. She has raised wha...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1455 (Link to this contribution) I was surprised to hear the noble Baroness suggest that the rule derives from a time when the wife w...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1456 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 25:"Page 4, line 30, at end insert ““, and" (   )   if the service provider is...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 673 c1456 (Link to this contribution) I said that I hoped to be able to thank the noble and learned Lord, and I do for a crumb of comfort....

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1457 (Link to this contribution) I think so. The noble and learned Lord has accepted the sense of the amendment. He thinks it is unne...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1456-7 (Link to this contribution) I can respond, I hope, equally briefly. Surely the person will not be found guilty of the offence, b...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1457 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26:"After Clause 11, insert the following new clause—"    ““ABOLITION OF OFFEN...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I shall of course withdraw the amendment in its present form, but I may return to the   issue on Rep...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1458 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, and if he is seriously considering bringing it back, ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1425-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord correctly indicates what the effect of Amendment No. 11 would be; it    would broaden...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I support the wording of the Bill on the basis of clarity and certainty. It would be possible for a ...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1427 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 11 to some extent overlaps with Amendment No. 13, which was in our name and is in the ...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1423 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 2, line 10, leave out ““dishonestly””" The noble Lord said: These amend...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1423-5 (Link to this contribution) I attempted to explain this at Second Reading. Clause 3 makes it an offence to fail to disclose info...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1425 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. As I said, these were probing amendments. I entirely ac...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1422 (Link to this contribution) I do not know quite how the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, would regard what is—or, at any rate, used t...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1422-3 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his reply. However, I do not on thi...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1422 (Link to this contribution) The point is that if they use a description which is understood by people to mean ““It might be; pro...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1421 (Link to this contribution) On this occasion I have had no support at all for my amendments—which is one worse than during the p...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1421-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6:"Page 2, line 3, leave out ““might”” and insert ““intends it to””" The noble ...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 673 c1421 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said, except that it argues t...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1421 (Link to this contribution) With respect, again, it is an everyday experience that someone will say something which is either mi...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 673 c1420-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord the former Attorney-General should advance that argument....

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 673 c1421 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the observations that have been made. As I understand it, the whole basis of t...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1420 (Link to this contribution) Questions about the timing of the representation and the materiality are all wrapped up in the word ...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 673 c1420 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General, who have ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1419-20 (Link to this contribution) I have to resist this amendment as well. I remind the Committee of the beauty of the simplicity of t...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1419 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4:"Page 2, line 3, after ““person”” insert ““at the time of””" The noble Lord s...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1419 (Link to this contribution) I think I have made my point. The noble and learned Lord understands the mischief I am getting at. I...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1418 (Link to this contribution) I recall a leading case on recklessness in criminal damage. It was the Metropolitan Police Commissio...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1418 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his response. I am delighted at the support I h...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 673 c1418 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, is the House to infer that he will not pursue the inclusion of the ...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1418-9 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that if the noble and learned Lord does not like the word ““reckless””, what other formu...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1419 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord think it is a waste of time only because I shall get no support from the Liberal...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 673 c1419 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is not getting much support from the Cross Benches either.

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1417-8 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on this. However, I wish to start by ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 673 c1453-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24:"After Clause 10, insert the following new clause—"    ““CONSPIRACY BETWEEN...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1452 (Link to this contribution) Once again I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord. In essence, he seems to be saying that ...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1454-5 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has, after three hours, had an opportunity to take p...

Lord Geddes | 673 c1450 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 19 I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to, I cannot call A...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1450-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19:"Page 2, line 38, leave out subsection (1) and insert—" ““(1)   A person is...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1451 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may speak briefly to Amendment No. 20 in this group. I hope that the Government will have ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1451-2 (Link to this contribution) Clause 6 makes it an offence for a person to possess or have under his control any article,"““for us...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1449-50 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall not weary the Committee by responding to that. There are two points. First, we d...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1450 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General for that extremely full and ex...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1448-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it would or would not have been appropriate in the other cases. I interpret th...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1448 (Link to this contribution) My point was that there were just over 1,000 cases in which the count of conspiracy to defraud was u...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1446 (Link to this contribution) If these submissions are so persuasive, why is it that the Government look with favour on the idea o...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 673 c1445 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General would return for one moment to the issue of ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1445-6 (Link to this contribution) I am assured by those who attended the meeting, in the presence of the present Lord Chief Justice, t...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 673 c1444 (Link to this contribution) Is it not obvious from the substance of the report that the Law Commission was following the views o...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1444-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure I understand why the noble and learned Lord says that the Law Commission was following...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1441-2 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may pick up on a point made a moment ago by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, about uncertai...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1442-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course I anticipated that this would be the lively debate of the evening. In my long   letter to ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1436 (Link to this contribution) I will have to give some thought to the specific example the noble Lord gives. Some immediate respon...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1436 (Link to this contribution) Suppose the information is, for example, trade secrets, and the person who has got hold of the trade...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 673 c1438-9 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment for all the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I am sorry not t...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1436 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General for his reply. This was a probing amendment....

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1439-41 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, who felt unable to support any of my am...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1434 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes my point for me. I stand by what I said: that in many cases saying, ““I made fu...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1434 (Link to this contribution) The more the noble and learned Lord talks, the more helpful he is becoming. I am most grateful. In t...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1434-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 17:"Page 2, line 32, after ““action”” insert ““, confidential information””" Th...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1435-6 (Link to this contribution) The definition of property in Clause 5 follows the existing definition of ““property”” in the Theft ...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1431-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his full answer to my questions. I understand the re...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1430-1 (Link to this contribution) This amendment, too, touches on the topic that we debated in the previous amendment and I shall not ...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1429-30 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13:"Page 2, line 11, leave out ““and”” and insert ““or" (   )   dishonestly ta...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1428-9 (Link to this contribution) Once again I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General for his response. A...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1432-4 (Link to this contribution) Clause 4 makes it an offence dishonestly to abuse one’s position to commit fraud. The noble Lord’s a...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1432 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15:"Page 2, line 19, after ““dishonestly”” insert ““and secretly””" The noble L...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 673 c1428 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may proceed to answer the noble Lord briefly or to make a comment about the matter. Th...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1428 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis who makes a good point. However, it is not the o...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 673 c1427-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General was quite right to give a detailed answer to my nobl...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 673 c1428 (Link to this contribution) As I understand the position, it is qualified by the word ““dishonesty””. The example that has been ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1415 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene. Perhaps I may suggest quite simply tha...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1415 (Link to this contribution) I think that my response will be quite terse. While I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1415 (Link to this contribution) I take that point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 673 c1416-7 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support what my noble friend Lord Kingsland has said. Recklessness is a very good ...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1416 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 2, line 3, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—" ““(b)   the person mak...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1417 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to see the absence of the word ““reckless”” in the Bill. In my view, it has caused a g...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1412 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I should have made clear at the outset that, like ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1413-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord started by indicating that each of the proposed new subsections follows the same form...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1412-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 1, line 19, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—" ““(b)   either— (i)  ...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1411 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1:"Page 1, line 7, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Lord said: Grouped with ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1411-2 (Link to this contribution) The Law Commission, in the report that noble Lords complimented at Second Reading, set out a number ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1411 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved, Th...

Lord Goodhart | 673 c1437-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 18: After Clause 5, insert the following new clause— "ABOLITION OF OFFENCE ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1457-8 (Link to this contribution) This was an issue that the Law Commission quite specifically excluded from its review. It says at th...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 673 c1449 (Link to this contribution) I very much regret that my absence abroad prevented me attending the meeting to which the noble and ...

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1425 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 2, line 11, leave out ““legal””" The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. ...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1418 (Link to this contribution) Trading anecdote for anecdote, I recall circuit judges asking how to direct a jury along those lines...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 673 c1419 (Link to this contribution) I think it is a waste of time as I believe the amendment is also a waste of time.

Lord Kingsland | 673 c1434 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. He spoke of the difficulty in defining secrecy, but lat...

Viscount Simon | 673 c1415 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 3, I must advise Members of the Committee that if it is agreed to, I sh...

Lord Goldsmith | 673 c1446-8 (Link to this contribution) The Government have accepted the logic of the argument that one would want to move towards a positio...

Subjects

Disclosure of information Contracts Data protection Abuse Crime Conspiracy Common law Fraud Exemptions Powers Misrepresentation Married people Sales Reform Caveat emptor rule

Legislation

Fraud Bill (HL) 2005-06

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk