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Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Thursday, 3 November 2005, in the House of Commons.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Committee stage second day. Clauses 5-11, 13-20, 25-38 agreed to. Clause 12 agreed to as amended. Schedules 1-3 agreed to. New clauses considered. New schedules considered. Bill reported with amendments. (Bill 77 2005-06).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
438 c985-1073 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
New schedules
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Terrorism Bill. Explanatory notes Bill 55-EN also published.
Wednesday, 12 October 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
John Denham | 438 c1069 (Link to this contribution) Although such an attack is clearly terrorist and would be defined as such in the 2000 Act, the point...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1068 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. The indiscriminate targeting of civilians, even in war, is to b...
Show all contributions (306)
Charles Clarke | 438 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) about the timing of t...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way in a moment. That is why I think that the definition in the amendment comes the cl...
William Cash | 438 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution) I simply offer this as a thought, with reference to my intervention on the right hon. Member for Sou...
John Bercow | 438 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I understand entirely the point that my hon. Friend has just made, and he is right to make it—but ma...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my hon. Friend very briefly, because I am conscious that the Home Secretary wish...
John Denham | 438 c1051 (Link to this contribution) Does not my hon. Friend realise that the provision could cover people who had not taken part in any ...
Geoffrey Cox | 438 c1051 (Link to this contribution) Does that not mean that the very reason why someone might be seeking refuge in this country could be...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1050-1 (Link to this contribution) I know from the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s earlier comments, which he now reinforces, that h...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1052 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comment. I was giving an honest response to my right hon...
John Bercow | 438 c1052 (Link to this contribution) I am genuinely astonished by the Minister’s response to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itche...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1051-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not dispute what my right hon. Friend says—he explains the situation clearly. A person who was ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1050 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) mentioned the new world order. We are dealing with a c...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1050 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman wisely cited his strongest point when he talked about the preparation of terroris...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1050 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister could send me a copy of his letter to the hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow)...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1057 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 105, in clause 18, page 17, line 1, leave o...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1057 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 104, in clause 18, page 16, line 36, leave out from ‘of’ to end of line ...
Michael Fallon | 438 c1058 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) pointed out, the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1057-8 (Link to this contribution) Clause 18 extends a liability for offences under the Bill to bodies corporate. Where an offence by ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to intervene in the speech of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). Perhaps there ...
Peter Bottomley | 438 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) When I was a trustee and member of the board at Christian Aid in the late 1970s, complaints were mad...
Sally Keeble | 438 c1052 (Link to this contribution) May I flag up the opposite position to that put forward by other hon. Members? It is clear from seve...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1052 (Link to this contribution) The balance is clear. We have obligations to people who may have been convicted of an offence but ca...
Rob Marris | 438 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister to have another think about these matters. I understood him to say—perhaps I misu...
David Heath | 438 c1053 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate. I began by saying that I was moving a probing amendment. Goodness...
Lord Garnier | 438 c1062 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. Not for the first time, he has just made the...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c1062 (Link to this contribution) May I finish this point, and then I will of course give way to my hon. and learned Friend? I identi...
Lord Garnier | 438 c1062 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c1062 (Link to this contribution) Or, as my hon. Friend says from a sedentary position, the struggle in Darfur. All of us must ask ou...
Richard Burden | 438 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 33 stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (J...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish briefly to support the remarks made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richar...
Richard Burden | 438 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 33, in clause 20, page 17, leave out lines 31 to 33.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 69, in clause 20, page 17,...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Under-Secretary for his response. The clause needs attention. The Bill cannot l...
Lord McCabe | 438 c1066 (Link to this contribution) I want to comment briefly on amendment No. 69. I support this Bill and want it to go through, but ...
Peter Bottomley | 438 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall make some brief statements about this matter. I shall not present an argument, as we must co...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I agree with everything that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) has just said....
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) It is unfortunate that, because of the way in which our debate on the Bill is ordered, we have come ...
Phyllis Starkey | 438 c1063-4 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend refers to a number of international documents and conventions. Should we not al...
John Denham | 438 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) I will touch on that issue, which relates to the report from which I took the wording of my amendm...
William Cash | 438 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s argument. Would he consider excluding any actions...
John Denham | 438 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I shall have to reflect on that, and perhaps we will be able to return to it when the Bill comes bac...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution) We must decide how to proceed. We can leave the Bill as it is—I shall return to that possibility in ...
John Denham | 438 c1063 (Link to this contribution) : What I shall say about my amendment, No. 69, will follow comments that have already been made and ...
William Cash | 438 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) : On a point of order, Mrs. Heal, I have put a question to the Solicitor-General, who is sitting on ...
Charles Clarke | 438 c1071 (Link to this contribution) I will very much look at amendment No. 61 in the context of this discussion, but I have an element o...
Helen Goodman | 438 c1071 (Link to this contribution) Following on from the previous point, not all hon. Members share the Home Secretary’s very optimisti...
Charles Clarke | 438 c1071 (Link to this contribution) I agree. In fact, that was the central theme of my speech on Second Reading, when I sought to refer ...
John Bercow | 438 c1071 (Link to this contribution) I hugely appreciate the spirit in which the Home Secretary is addressing the issues raised by the ...
Viscount Hailsham | 438 c1070 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary may have just answered my question. Is he giving the Committee an undertaking tha...
Charles Clarke | 438 c1070 (Link to this contribution) I will give them serious consideration, but I make the point—not in an antagonistic spirit—that the ...
William Cash | 438 c1070 (Link to this contribution) Does the Home Secretary take my point about the problem that arises in the context of civil war? For...
Charles Clarke | 438 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) I understand that very real point, but if the 9/11 attacks had taken place when there was no one in ...
Richard Burden | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has heard what has been said. I have heard his undertakings. They are welcome...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could confirm that his understanding is the same as mine: we now...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I was hoping that the Home Secretary would give way, having just referred to me; otherwise, I am b...
Richard Burden | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) In view of the brevity of this debate, it would be inappropriate to vote on such a fundamental issue...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary has sat down and concluded his remarks.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) wishes to table those questions, it is entirely up to him to...
Peter Bottomley | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is this an exception to the rule that, when a Minister re...
William Cash | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mrs. Heal, I have done so: they are on the Order Paper today.
Peter Bottomley | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mrs. Heal, I am grateful to you for that—[Interruption.]
William Cash | 438 c988 (Link to this contribution) : I very much endorse the views expressed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rus...
Peter Robinson | 438 c987-8 (Link to this contribution) In attempting to intervene earlier, I wanted to make a point similar to that made by the right hon...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c986-7 (Link to this contribution) I want to press the Minister to give us a little more detail on exactly how this provision will be a...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c987 (Link to this contribution) The Bill seems not to require that, to be caught by this provision, the person or organisation singi...
William Cash | 438 c985 (Link to this contribution) When deciding whether particular organisations should be proscribed, might we not encounter a diffic...
Tony Wright | 438 c986 (Link to this contribution) I support very strongly what the Government are trying to do in general through this Bill, but we ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c986 (Link to this contribution) Even communities such as the Muslim community have organisations and structures, although overall th...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c985 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister will know, an amendment to clause 21 was tabled but not selected. It dealt with the ...
David Heath | 438 c1040-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 90 and 91 stand in my name and those of several of my hon. Friends, as well as those...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 91, in clause 17, page 16, line 5, at end i...
David Heath | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 90, in clause 17, page 16, line 3, leave out ‘and’.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1039 (Link to this contribution) That might be my hon. Friend’s view, but our aim is to be as clear as we can be in the Bill. The p...
Rob Marris | 438 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to trouble the Minister on this, but Ministers often tell a Committee, ““Such an amendm...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1039 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that, as with any legislation, the Bill will go through the House and receive Ro...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) very properly pre-empted me by asking the Ministe...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that the section is not yet in force. I fear that to satisfy the hon. Gentleman I sh...
David Heath | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I should like to put three brief questions to the Minister. Will he confirm that section 53 of the R...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1043-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has made a point that I intended to make. That is the other snag involved i...
David Heath | 438 c1041 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. Some sexual offences are also included. I do not argue against that, alt...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1041 (Link to this contribution) I think that it is extraterrestrial—the scope of the Bill is not limited to the planet Earth at all,...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1041 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) introduced his amendment in a very low key way. I...
David Heath | 438 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Perhaps I did present the amendments ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1041-2 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, were a little green man to get out of a flying saucer anywhere in the United Kin...
John Denham | 438 c1042-3 (Link to this contribution) : The Government might be storing up a problem. A number of Governments with whom we are generally f...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I was not criticising the hon. Gentleman. I can, however, envisage enormous difficulties. Let us sup...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1048 (Link to this contribution) It may be the Home Secretary’s role to negotiate treaties, to discuss such matters and to reach poli...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1047-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister touches on the role of Attorney-General. I do not doubt the Attorney-General’s legal ad...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1047 (Link to this contribution) Not for the first time in our deliberations, we are operating in the context of a wider debate on ot...
Peter Robinson | 438 c1046-7 (Link to this contribution) When I first read clause 17 I assumed that it was just badly drafted. I was reinforced in that bel...
Helen Goodman | 438 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what has been said by other hon. Members on this subject. When the Minister re...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. We know that the United Nations has been struggling to find a definition of terror...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1046 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that genocide and torture are clearly defined offences in internationa...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1044-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what others have said about clause 17 and the two amendments to it, both of which I sup...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1044 (Link to this contribution) That point had not occurred to me, but I agree with it entirely. So far as I can see, successful a...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1049 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend knows more about South Africa and the reach of its laws than me, but I draw to her ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I hope to have the opportunity to do so in due course, and I am certainly happy to clarify the issue...
John Bercow | 438 c1049-50 (Link to this contribution) I should be very surprised indeed if there were a Council of Europe provision that mandated the incl...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1049 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that these are the exact words of the convention, but article 14 of the Council of Eur...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister read out to the Committee our obligations in respect of weapons training under the...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Our obligations under the convention require that wider international context. That applies ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1048 (Link to this contribution) It is not just a question of the Attorney-General’s discretion, but of what happens to the victims o...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1048 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept the assertion that it is dangerous nonsense. I want to put a serious point to the ho...
Lynne Jones | 438 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Like many hon. Members, I am oscillating about the clause. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, there may be other legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud speculated about someon...
David Drew | 438 c1038 (Link to this contribution) As the Under-Secretary should know, the problem at Fairford is that the police determined the peri...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution) Again, my hon. Friend makes a powerful point. In the letter that I send him, I shall set out the pro...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1037-8 (Link to this contribution) In order to give the hon. Gentleman a precise answer I would need to stray into the next clause, whi...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1039 (Link to this contribution) : Perhaps the Under-Secretary will drop me one, too.
Rob Marris | 438 c1039 (Link to this contribution) Subsection (2) reads:"““Subsection (1) does not apply to offences committed before the commencement ...
John Bercow | 438 c1034 (Link to this contribution) I fear that unless I explain the point it might sound frivolous when it is not. It is important that...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1034 (Link to this contribution) Walter Wolfgang has also been at demonstrations outside nuclear sites, so perhaps that should be con...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1033 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the Committee can be spared the history of the 20th century. The hon. Gentleman ...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1033-4 (Link to this contribution) I never wish to be led astray by the hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow). Future generations wi...
John Bercow | 438 c1033 (Link to this contribution) With what offence would such individuals be charged under clause 12? On the surface, I share the hon...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1033 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure how grateful I should be for that intervention, but I shall do my best to accept it in...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1032-3 (Link to this contribution) I listened to the Minister and I understand the amendments that have been accepted. I wrote down...
David Drew | 438 c1034-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to take much more of the Committee’s time. I know that the Minister is going to write ...
Rob Marris | 438 c1034 (Link to this contribution) I welcome you to the Chair, Sir Alan. I could do with a little help from the Minister, following o...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1030 (Link to this contribution) I shall do so privately behind the Speaker’s Chair to my hon. Friend afterwards. I welcome what the...
David Heath | 438 c1030 (Link to this contribution) I also welcome these amendments—they are obviously a sensible adjustment to the original text—but I ...
David Drew | 438 c1030 (Link to this contribution) I want to pursue my earlier inquiry a little further. Our debate relates closely to what has happen...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1029 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that the provision will cease to apply when a site is de-licensed. I hope that that gi...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1029-30 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the Government have moved the amendment. I had read the text as it stands and, i...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1031 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman has effectively opened up a clause stand part debate. At present, we are f...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1030-1 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the Government amendments. If they clarify exac...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1032 (Link to this contribution) With your permission, Mr. Cook, I will follow up the inquiries made by my hon. Friends the Members f...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1031 (Link to this contribution) It might be helpful to my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and for Stroud ...
Stewart Hosie | 438 c1035 (Link to this contribution) : Will the Minister make it clear that the objective is to charge people with the criminal offence o...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1035-6 (Link to this contribution) In reply to the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie), clause 12 adds civil nuclear sites to ...
Mike Weir | 438 c1036 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has confused me. He is discussing the presumption that someone is a terrorist if he is ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1036 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman reflect on a situation in which somebody, whether he is a terrorist or a pro...
John Bercow | 438 c1036 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding the Minister’s explanation and justification, I find myself unpersuaded. Given that ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1036-7 (Link to this contribution) As I said in response to the hon. Member for Dundee, East, the offences with which individuals would...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1037 (Link to this contribution) At many sites, it is clear where the fence is but not clear who owns, controls or occupies the lan...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1037 (Link to this contribution) Of course I accept that people may be in an unauthorised place for different purposes, but those res...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1037 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that we have many other issues to discuss, but I am always tempted to give way to the...
Rob Marris | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8(4) states that a summary conviction in England and Wales could result in a sentence of up t...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1018 (Link to this contribution) The Under-Secretary certainly appeared to imply that. He argued that my suggestion that people who h...
John Bercow | 438 c1018 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I understood my hon. Friend correctly because the scenario that he outlined is even...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 100, in clause 12, page 12, line 34, at beginning insert ‘so much of’.
John Bercow | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being slow to rise and I am sorry if an air of world-weary cynicism greeted my att...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) I will make the note available at the earliest opportunity. As soon as I am able to provide it to my...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will be patient, I shall drop him a line very soon with the answer to that questio...
Robert Smith | 438 c1016 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems unwilling to address the point that someone might be attending the terrorist camp...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1016 (Link to this contribution) No—I am trying to deal with the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Jere...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1017 (Link to this contribution) I repeat that attendance implies a voluntary presence. That is clear. Anybody who is held against th...
Sally Keeble | 438 c1017 (Link to this contribution) I want to consider the point about the journalists and the mad trips. If journalists had heard a rum...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1017 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. Journalists who found themselves in a terrorist training camp, realised wha...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1016 (Link to this contribution) If somebody has reason to believe that they know where a training camp is, they should report it to ...
John Bercow | 438 c1016 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect to the Minister, it seems to me, and probably to many people, that much of...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1016 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with that point specifically when I conclude my remarks. The Opposition also suggest th...
John Bercow | 438 c1017 (Link to this contribution) It is important to be pedantic about the matter and to explore all possible scenarios. I do not agre...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) As does the hon. Gentleman. This is sparking a lively and interesting discussion. I do not know how ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) We seem to be getting into deeper water than anticipated. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help the Minister. Unless the law has changed, the hon. Member for Islington, North (J...
David Heath | 438 c1029 (Link to this contribution) My fear is that this is a rather academic argument. [Hon. Members: ““It is very serious.””] It is ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1029 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may regard this as an academic exercise. The Government’s intention is to make it...
David Leslie Taylor | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) One of the branches of pure mathematics that I greatly enjoyed was topology. At what point does the ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1028-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) may be more familiar than me with the precise wording,...
David Drew | 438 c1029 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for missing the earlier remarks; I was in Westminster Hall. Will the Minister clarify wh...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1027 (Link to this contribution) I wrote earlier this week to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) and the ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1026 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discussGovernment amendments Nos. 101 to 103.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1027 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman reads my mind. There are some parts that sit outside the security perimeter. No ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1027-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can clarify things to my hon. Friend’s satisfaction. When people are outside the secur...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) May I press the Minister a little on the matter? I have some experience of visiting nuclear sites an...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1028 (Link to this contribution) If they remained outside the perimeter fence they would not be caught by the offence, although I ima...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1012-3 (Link to this contribution) : Thank you, Mr. Cook. I support the amendments moved by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, because...
Hywel Williams | 438 c1012 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said that the range of activities is vast, and I am co...
Rob Marris | 438 c1011 (Link to this contribution) : I seek some reassurance from the Minister on amendment No. 58. For example, a university lecturer,...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1011 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the hon. Lady was present when the hon. Member for Beaconsfield referred to pe...
Sally Keeble | 438 c1011 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the different types of organisation that might be in such a place for...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1011 (Link to this contribution) Legitimacy will be established according to the full facts and circumstances of any individual case....
Chris Bryant | 438 c1010-1 (Link to this contribution) The problem is the word ““legitimate””. The hon. Gentleman—no, it was the hon. Member for Somerton...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1010 (Link to this contribution) Or indeed, as my hon. Friend says, an NGO might be performing some legitimate research purpose.
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1013 (Link to this contribution) What does the Minister mean when he says, ““attendance at a camp””? The danger is that the provision...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1013 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate you, Mr. Cook, on what I believe is a significant anniversary today. I will not revea...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1015 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have already heard murmurs around the Chamber of Members once again returning to the i...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1015-6 (Link to this contribution) I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to subsection (2)(b), which says:"““a person attending at that pla...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1015 (Link to this contribution) As regards people being accused of attending a terrorist training camp in another country, if a jour...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1013 (Link to this contribution) We have in mind places that train and prepare people to commit acts of terror.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution) We will discuss the concept of ““attending””, which implies that the person who is doing the ““atten...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1014 (Link to this contribution) The key words are ““wholly or partly””. If someone attends a place where terrorist training is going...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1013 (Link to this contribution) I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to clause 8(1):"““A person commits an offence if he attends at any...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) : I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) about clauses 6 and 8; my am...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) May I remind the hon. Gentleman that my constituency is Beaconsfield?
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) It is all England as far as I am concerned.
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) Our constituencies are not far apart.
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1009-10 (Link to this contribution) I disagree. My constituency is a place to the north of Scotland, which is a place just south of my c...
Chris Bryant | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentlemen think that all England covers Scotland as well.
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c1010 (Link to this contribution) I never know until I read Hansard whether I have come to the end of a paragraph. I would love to pre...
David Heath | 438 c1010 (Link to this contribution) : A non-governmental organisation.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1003 (Link to this contribution) I just want to respond to the question asked by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardin...
Robert Smith | 438 c1002-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) makes an important point about the way ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1003 (Link to this contribution) I said that I would need to take advice on whether other offences would be committed and I certain...
David Heath | 438 c1003 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to detain the Minister much longer. He is of course right that the offence is most ser...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1004 (Link to this contribution) I shall examine the penalties in the other clauses and we will no doubt have the opportunity to disc...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1003 (Link to this contribution) I was about to try to help the Minister. The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1004 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 57, in page 7, line 32, leave out ‘or suspects’.
Rob Marris | 438 c1004 (Link to this contribution) I did not want to broaden the debate into a consideration of what constitutes terrorism at this st...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it abundantly clear that there must be active participation in the preparation of the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) If I decided to give £5,000 to Hezbollah, would that be caught, or not?
Paul Goggins | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) I make the point again: it is not the remote giving of money, no matter how substantial the donati...
John Bercow | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being very good natured and generous in these exchanges, which is seriously apprecia...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1001-2 (Link to this contribution) I would probably need to take further advice, but someone who makes financial contributions to a ter...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1002 (Link to this contribution) I shall sit down in a moment, and if other Members wish to make speeches, they should be free to m...
Chris Bryant | 438 c1002 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with what the hon. Gentleman says. However, I wonder whether the problem lies in the la...
David Heath | 438 c1002 (Link to this contribution) I just want to tease a little more out of the Minister on this—[Interruption.] I do not want to teas...
David Heath | 438 c1002 (Link to this contribution) That would indeed be different, but the wording could not possibly bear that construction. It is qui...
John Bercow | 438 c1000 (Link to this contribution) I feel certain that the Minister did not intend simply and in a cavalier fashion to brush aside the ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1000 (Link to this contribution) I meant no disrespect to my hon. Friend—I am sure that he did not take my comments that way—and I ce...
Rob Marris | 438 c1000 (Link to this contribution) May I tell my hon. Friend the Minister that the wording of clause 5 underscores yet again the diffic...
Paul Goggins | 438 c998-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) for tabling what he acknow...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c999-1000 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister that very useful exposition of the Government’s thinking. It may yet prove help...
Robert Smith | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) Should I make a speech if that would be more useful, Sir Michael?
Paul Goggins | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) I note that, just when I intend to sit down, hon. Members leap up in great numbers.
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c996-7 (Link to this contribution) It may assist the Committee and the Minister if I explain that these are probing amendments whose ge...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c997 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) raises an important point. It is not an eas...
Chris Bryant | 438 c997 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman said that he had given a good example. I am not sure that it is. There may be a...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c997 (Link to this contribution) Very simply. The person tells a neighbour or a friend that he has decided, because he is so horrifie...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c996 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 88, page 7, line 27, at end insert— '( ) I...
Peter Robinson | 438 c998 (Link to this contribution) I caution against the amendment. The wording of the clause is such that the inclusion of the word ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c998 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. Often confidences are imparted to one’s tailor or to the perso...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c998 (Link to this contribution) The first thing one should do when considering legislation is to conclude how it may work in practic...
Paul Goggins | 438 c995 (Link to this contribution) What is not helpful is the confusion that has emerged in the debate between individual conduct, whic...
Chris Bryant | 438 c995 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has troubled me by what he has just said. In 1986, I attended the funeral of a boy wh...
Paul Goggins | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is an assiduous contributor to our important debates and I will happily give way to h...
Chris Bryant | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way before he concludes?
John Bercow | 438 c995 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and I apologise for coming late to the debate. This is ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c995 (Link to this contribution) I have learnt that the hon. Gentleman usually asks questions well worthy of consideration. I shall...
Paul Goggins | 438 c995 (Link to this contribution) How could I not give way to the hon. Gentleman, having given way to so many other hon. Members?
Rob Marris | 438 c995-6 (Link to this contribution) The problem with the wording that the hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow) mentioned is that the...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c996 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 87, page 7, line 22, after ‘any’, insert ‘relevant’.
Paul Goggins | 438 c993 (Link to this contribution) I was about to come to my hon. Friend’s question, so now is definitely the time to deal with it. Whe...
Paul Goggins | 438 c993 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment. People have spoken about Irish Republican songs, Guy Fawkes and so on,...
Stewart Hosie | 438 c993-4 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the comments on history, but I am sure that many of my colleagues and many Labour Membe...
Paul Goggins | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) If I repeat myself, I apologise to the Committee, but I wish to draw a distinction between what may ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) Clause 21 states:"““The glorification of any conduct is unlawful for the purposes of subsection (5A)...
Paul Goggins | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I have shared many a happy hour in Committee on this and many other Bills. No...
Richard Burden | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) I wish to give my hon. Friend an example of something that might happen. The hon. Member for Dunde...
Paul Goggins | 438 c994 (Link to this contribution) The point that I am making has to be seen in the context of the clause that we are discussing. We ar...
Paul Goggins | 438 c992 (Link to this contribution) We are not having second thoughts, but we always listen carefully to the hon. Gentleman, who yesterd...
William Cash | 438 c992 (Link to this contribution) If we were to go through the clauses in which the term ““glorification”” crops up—including the defi...
Paul Goggins | 438 c993 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may have other thoughts as well, which he may share with us, now or in the future. My...
Rob Marris | 438 c993 (Link to this contribution) In response to the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), my hon. Friend said th...
Paul Goggins | 438 c993 (Link to this contribution) The listening exercise continues, not least with my right hon. Friend. I was simply repeating the wo...
John Denham | 438 c992-3 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my hon. Friend the Minister and the House for having joined the debate somewhat late....
Richard Shepherd | 438 c988-9 (Link to this contribution) I listened respectfully to the Minister, but I agree with everything that has been said by other h...
Paul Goggins | 438 c992 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give the right hon. and learned Gentleman a specific example, but I can tell him that as ...
Paul Goggins | 438 c991 (Link to this contribution) As I predicted earlier, some of the discussion on this clause has reflected our earlier consideratio...
Paul Goggins | 438 c991 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give me a second, because I was about to come to the point...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c991 (Link to this contribution) The clause extends the existing definition in the Terrorism Act 2000. My recollection is that no one...
Gordon Prentice | 438 c989 (Link to this contribution) Clause 21 explains that the notion of a glorifying statement includes ““a communication without word...
Rob Marris | 438 c989 (Link to this contribution) I have reservations about the wording of clause 21, and much sympathy with what has been said alre...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c990 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all those who have participated in this short debate, which has highlighted so...
Alistair Carmichael | 438 c990-1 (Link to this contribution) We have had a useful discussion, but one aspect that needs to be emphasised is an echo of yesterday’...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) I was thinking of the first group of people—I had not thought of the second. The defence of duress a...
John Bercow | 438 c1009 (Link to this contribution) : Is the word ““involuntary”” in paragraph (c) of my hon. Friend’s amendment intended to have a broa...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1008-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I suggested that in our legal system traditionally the burd...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1008 (Link to this contribution) Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I have great deal of sympathy with the ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1008 (Link to this contribution) A different wording is, of course, possible, and I am happy to listen to any variants that the Minis...
Chris Bryant | 438 c1008 (Link to this contribution) : I have some sympathy with the amendment, which is seeking to tease out the purpose of the clause. ...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1006-7 (Link to this contribution) That is right. We know from the past that many of the experts in weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...
Chris Bryant | 438 c1006 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the university lecturers are not making a frivolous point. However, at the other end of the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1004-6 (Link to this contribution) The amendments relate to clause 8 as well as clause 6. Clause 6 is titled ““Training for terrorism””...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1004 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 89, in page 7, line 32, aft...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1000 (Link to this contribution) In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), who wants t...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend.
Paul Goggins | 438 c1051 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman says is true. People who come here to seek asylum who have carried out terro...
Charles Clarke | 438 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) I am. I shall also try to seek agreement. As with all these things, I cannot promise to reach agreem...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) If those questions have been tabled already, it is up to the Solicitor-General to reply to the hon. ...
John Bercow | 438 c1044 (Link to this contribution) I fear, Sir Alan, that my right hon. and learned Friend’s concerns are justified and that they can b...
Sally Keeble | 438 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Are not the extraterritorial powers and their application similar to the South African legislation u...
John Bercow | 438 c1037 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is extremely courteous, and I appreciate that. Given that he talks about clarity, let m...
John Bercow | 438 c1035 (Link to this contribution) I am at a peculiar disadvantage, although I do not think that I am uniquely in that position to judg...
Paul Goggins | 438 c992 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham).
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 438 c1072 (Link to this contribution) Is the Home Secretary giving way, or has he finished?
Paul Goggins | 438 c985 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) referred to an amendment that had not been selected, b...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1040 (Link to this contribution) I would not dream of writing to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome without copying the letter to...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the contributions that have been made in the debate, and especially that of my rig...
Jeremy Corbyn | 438 c1027 (Link to this contribution) The amendment suggests that anyone outside the perimeter fence, whether at Fylingdales or somewhere ...
Chris Bryant | 438 c1010 (Link to this contribution) I was waiting to intervene because I thought that the hon. Gentleman was coming to the end of a pa...
Paul Goggins | 438 c1003 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. We have had many such discussions in the...
Dominic Grieve | 438 c1017-8 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the Under-Secretary. He knows that I did not intend to press amendment ...
Robert Smith | 438 c1001 (Link to this contribution) The use of the word ““or”” in clause 5(1) is important.—[Interruption.] It says:"““A person commits ...
Subjects
Criminal investigation Asylum Companies Directors Liability Incitement International law Nuclear weapons Protest Proscribed organisations Radioactive materials Terrorism Training Trespass Encouragement of terrorism
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk