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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Monday, 12 May 2008, in the House of Lords.

Health and Social Care Bill

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
701 c207-62GC 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department of Health
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Tonge | 701 c249-50GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I wanted to draw to her attention why we think that it is so importan...
Baroness Barker | 701 c251-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 90: 90: Clause 44, page 22, line 9, at end insert— ““( ) The Commission shall ...
Show all contributions (117)
Earl Howe | 701 c255-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 92: 92: After Clause 45, insert the following new Clause— ““Failings by Englis...
Baroness Barker | 701 c255GC (Link to this contribution) With that announcement, I am very happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment. I thank the Minister...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c232-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response, which was very encouraging. I do not think that there is any...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 38 deals with what happens when somebody who is registered as a service provider dies. This m...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c237GC (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the Committee do now adjourn during pleasure until 5.42 pm. Moved accordingly, a...
Countess of Mar | 701 c236GC (Link to this contribution) I am horribly confused by this term. I understood for a long time that NHS provider meant someone fr...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 701 c235-6GC (Link to this contribution) I was tempted to intervene a little earlier, when the noble Earl, Lord Howe, was challenging the lin...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c245GC (Link to this contribution) That is not my understanding, but I shall look at that to determine whether we are talking about the...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the intention that information on the register should be available in a convenient form...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c219GC (Link to this contribution) I can only repeat what I have said. Perhaps I need to write to the noble Earl and explain the differ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 701 c216GC (Link to this contribution) I want to refer specifically to a case where two breaches had taken place. My noble friend referred ...
Baroness Barker | 701 c217GC (Link to this contribution) I did not have to move my amendment because the Minister answered the question about the scale of th...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c207-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 57: 57: Clause 25, page 13, line 21, leave out ““provisions of this Chapter”” ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c246GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, that is not implied. I think that it has been said several times that we see CSCI’s model of...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 701 c248GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure on what grounds the Government could oppose the amendments. They seem eminently reason...
Earl Howe | 701 c252GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 226 and 227, grouped here in my name, are designed for a purpose identical to that o...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 701 c252-3GC (Link to this contribution) It is a question of whether you see a glass half full or half empty. When I heard the statement in t...
Baroness Barker | 701 c253-4GC (Link to this contribution) Result! I am delighted and I thank the Minister for having listened. It is important to say that thi...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c256-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 92 seeks to give the commission the power to recommend that the Secretary of State tak...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c254-5GC (Link to this contribution) I recognise how important it is that service users, especially those who self-fund and arrange their...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c259-60GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 94 to 97 relate to the visits that the Care Quality Commission and Welsh Ministers w...
Baroness Barker | 701 c259GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. I would like to pick her up on a couple of points in orde...
Baroness Greengross | 701 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to labour the point, but will the noble Baroness bear in mind that there has been a lot o...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c226GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that there is any disagreement about the seriousness of this issue and how important ...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c226GC (Link to this contribution) It would not be unreasonable to say that I sensed unease in the Committee and not complete happiness...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c230GC (Link to this contribution) I have a lot of sympathy with the noble Baroness; indeed, that was what I was doing over my shoulder...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c233-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to explain how the commission’s reviews will contribute to the new...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c230GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend on this. As a classical scholar, he is of course quite right. Perhaps the ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c236-7GC (Link to this contribution) I suspect that I am probably not going to clarify this any more happily than any other noble Lords, ...
Earl Howe | 701 c236GC (Link to this contribution) For the benefit of the noble Countess, I should say that ““English NHS provider”” is defined in Clau...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 701 c236GC (Link to this contribution) My point is rather less esoteric but I feel that I have to make it. The noble Earl has given me the ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c243GC (Link to this contribution) We have already had several discussions about this. I realise that some Members of the Committee wis...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c243-5GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that that is the point we are discussing. To repeat what I said about the indicators, ...
Lord Tordoff | 701 c238GC (Link to this contribution) In calling Amendment No. 75C, I should point out that if the amendment is agreed, I shall not be abl...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c238-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75C: 75C: Clause 42, page 21, line 1, leave out subsection (4) and insert— ““(...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c239-41GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend and I have amendments in this group, Amendments Nos. 77 to 81, 103ZA and 107, which ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c242GC (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the debate and I wish to reassure Members of the Committee by repeating...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c223GC (Link to this contribution) I shall continue until I have an answer to that. The goal should be to improve local arrangements f...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) I think we all agree that it is vital that complaints are dealt with effectively. Having listened ca...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c219GC (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the right thing to do.
Baroness Barker | 701 c220GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 62A: 62A: Clause 34, page 17, line 17, after ““available”” insert ““in electro...
Earl Howe | 701 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Onslow for making a perfe...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 701 c213GC (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I cannot see the logic behind the proposition, but I want to turn to...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) In response to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, the answer is yes. The penalty scheme is a coherent sche...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c217GC (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting debate because penalties are a difficult area to consider. I noted with inter...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) No, that was not what I was trying to say. The body itself—the trust—rather than any individual pers...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution) It is crucial that the commission’s actions are proportionate and focus on the welfare and rights of...
Earl Howe | 701 c211-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 60: 60: Clause 29, page 15, line 37, leave out from ““offence”” to end of line...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 59: 59: Clause 26, page 14, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) In deciding whether o...
Lord Colwyn | 701 c207GC (Link to this contribution) I remind Members of the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adj...
Baroness Barker | 701 c246-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 82: 82: Clause 44, page 21, line 33, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““(1...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c246GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, am not a very happy lady. There is still a conflict between subsections (4) and (5) of Claus...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 701 c248GC (Link to this contribution) I added my name to this amendment. The Government should have no difficulty at all in accepting it o...
Baroness Barker | 701 c250GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply, particularly for agreeing to consider Amendment No. 89 on the CQ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c250GC (Link to this contribution) We contend that the Bill already provides for the Care Quality Commission to be able to undertake ex...
Baroness Barker | 701 c251GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure. I will have to study carefully the noble Baroness’s words in Hansard, although I welc...
Baroness Murphy | 701 c253GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments. I do not see the point of fettering the commission. It is a body that has ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c253GC (Link to this contribution) Our debate on amendments tabled in relation to Clause 44 has been useful. I have listened carefully ...
Baroness Barker | 701 c255GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is on a roll. That is a very welcome announcement. For absolute clarity, can I take it ...
Baroness Barker | 701 c254GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 91A: 91A: Clause 45, page 22, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) After conducting a...
Earl Howe | 701 c257GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply. It is reassuring to hear that the interpretation to be placed on...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c224GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is saying that the Care Quality Commission will set up all these things. We are suggest...
Countess of Mar | 701 c225GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would help the noble Baroness if I give the example of what happened to my mother before ...
Earl Howe | 701 c230GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for stiffening my sinews on this; I was going to concede very meekl...
Baroness Barker | 701 c234-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. As with so many of her answers, although I realise that they ar...
Countess of Mar | 701 c236GC (Link to this contribution) That is why I am confused. I had a clear understanding of what ““NHS provider”” meant before this Bi...
Earl Howe | 701 c235GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75: 75: Clause 42, page 20, line 31, leave out ““NHS provider”” and insert ““p...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c243GC (Link to this contribution) I am not opposed to subsection (5). We are saying that the Secretary of State may direct the commiss...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c223GC (Link to this contribution) But those people publicly funded in private healthcare will not be allowed to be appeal to the ombud...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 701 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment is important in principle. Many groups feel disenfranchised and unable to complain be...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c224GC (Link to this contribution) This issue has been discussed at Second Reading and in Committee. The point that I was trying to mak...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c224GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s answer was, to me, opaque. It may be only my lack of little grey cells, but I lost he...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c224GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has only to ask and it will be done. We have a flow chart and I shall ensure that...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c221GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63: 63: After Clause 34, insert the following new Clause— ““Handling and consi...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c219GC (Link to this contribution) You take money away from the hospital. Who suffers? It is the hospital. What is the hospital for? It...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c219GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister could write to all of us, it would be very helpful. Perhaps she could refer also to ...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 701 c216GC (Link to this contribution) The complexity of the answer given by the Minister, which I look forward to reading, alerts me to th...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c217GC (Link to this contribution) The point to make is that the fines are up to £50,000 and that we are trying to build in as much fle...
Baroness Barker | 701 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) This is an important point for the avoidance of doubt. This provision may be a product of other laws...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) We have this lovely concept of mother state saying to national health hospital, ““Can I please have ...
Earl of Onslow | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) I am coming in later to talk on the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, but I heard someth...
Baroness Barker | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) I shall not pursue the matter much more, because we are not getting much further. There may have bee...
Earl Howe | 701 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reassuring explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 701 c245-6GC (Link to this contribution) I understand absolutely what the noble Baroness is saying in that response. I have no problem with t...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c246GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that. Certainly, I feel that the balance is totally wrong in the way that t...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c248-9GC (Link to this contribution) As Members of the Committee have so effectively set out, because of its role in regulating both publ...
Lord Tordoff | 701 c247-8GC (Link to this contribution) I should point out to the Committee that were this amendment to be agreed, I should not be able to c...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c251GC (Link to this contribution) I did not respond on Amendment No. 101A because it is not grouped with these amendments. However, I ...
Baroness Murphy | 701 c257-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 94: 94: Clause 48, page 24, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) The Commission shall...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 701 c262GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday 14 May at 3.45 pm.
Baroness Thornton | 701 c262GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.
Baroness Murphy | 701 c260-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that helpful reply, by which I feel in part reassured. A much less specific...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to emphasise that point. This is one of the problems that arises out of trying to comb...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 37 deals with what happens should an individual or company that is registered with the commis...
Baroness Barker | 701 c228-9GC (Link to this contribution) That answer was helpful in parts. If a small service provider has to go into an individual voluntary...
Baroness Barker | 701 c226-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 66A: 66A: Clause 37, page 18, line 28, at end insert ““, or ( ) an administrat...
Earl Howe | 701 c229GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 67: 67: Clause 38, page 18, line 38, leave out from ““in”” to end of line 39 a...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c230-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74: 74: Clause 42, page 20, line 27, after second ““of”” insert ““health promo...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I completely agree with the noble Baroness, particularly on the need for clarity in health campaigns...
Baroness Barker | 701 c233GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74A: 74A: Clause 42, page 20, line 29, after ““review,”” insert— ““( ) demonst...
Earl Howe | 701 c237GC (Link to this contribution) That was a helpful reply from the Minister. It clarifies the Explanatory Notes which are not as clea...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c245GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could help the Minister on that or perhaps I have misread it. Clause 43(4) states: "““The ...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c243GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister continues, I want to raise two points. She said that the quality indicators woul...
Baroness Tonge | 701 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not the only person here who is rather confused by all this. There is a problem wit...
Baroness Barker | 701 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. I wish that across government we could find a format of w...
Baroness Murphy | 701 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to add some questions to those of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in respect of these fines....
Baroness Thornton | 701 c213-6GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Cumberlege, Lady Tonge and Lady Barker, wh...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 701 c216GC (Link to this contribution) If one supposes that these two clauses go through unamended and thus without the option of criminal ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c217GC (Link to this contribution) I realise that this is important. Who is liable in an organisation such as an NHS trust? Is it the p...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) A fine is a process of the regulatory requirements. It is not just about a fine but the reputation o...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c218GC (Link to this contribution) I did not say that it would go back into the pot. I actually said that we were looking for an admini...
Baroness Cumberlege | 701 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clear explanation. I am delighted to have it on the record so that if ...
Baroness Thornton | 701 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) I agree that the commission must be able to take robust, appropriate and timely action where service...
Earl Howe | 701 c208GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 57A: 57A: Clause 25, page 13, line 27, leave out subsection (4) The noble Ear...
Subjects
Complaints Devolved matters Care homes Audit Cross border cooperation Health services ICT Disease control Infectious diseases Health education NHS Mental health services Standards Regulation Wales Social services Healthcare Commission Commission for Social Care Inspection Care Quality Commission
Legislation
Health and Social Care Bill 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk