---

Banking Bill

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

706 c1445-88,1531-48 

Session

2008-09

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Banking Bill. Brought from the Commons.
Wednesday, 17 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Whitty | 706 c1547-8 (Link to this contribution) As a result of government interventions, there are clearly some disadvantages to certain groups of c...

Lord Myners | 706 c1545-6 (Link to this contribution) I welcome my noble friend’s support for the central thrust of the Bill and I note the measured and c...

Show all contributions (142)

Lord Whitty | 706 c1546-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank those who have at least expressed sympathy for what lies behind the amendments. In particula...

Lord Newby | 706 c1544 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for bringing forward this amendment. I have a lot of s...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1545 (Link to this contribution) We have considerable sympathy with the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has raised. I think ...

Lord Whitty | 706 c1542-4 (Link to this contribution) Although this amendment appears to be somewhat prescriptive, it is, I assure my noble friend, essent...

Lord Northbrook | 706 c1544 (Link to this contribution) While in theory I am sympathetic to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I understand h...

Lord Whitty | 706 c1548 (Link to this contribution) In the light of that, I will withdraw the amendment. Amendment 105A withdrawn.

Lord Myners | 706 c1548 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, has baited me into responding on this point, sta...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1536 (Link to this contribution) We have spent long enough on the fun of this amendment. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment 100 with...

Lord Myners | 706 c1536 (Link to this contribution) In many years as a pension fund portfolio manager, I struggled with objectives that were expressed i...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1536 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will come back again, but, first, I agree wholeheartedly with the view the Minister ...

Lord Myners | 706 c1536 (Link to this contribution) It is the Government’s view, as I said earlier, that the bank resolution fund satisfies the conditio...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1537-8 (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed with the way in which the Minister has handled this. I raised a serious issue whic...

Lord Myners | 706 c1537 (Link to this contribution) We move around in this debate from issues of extraordinary technical complexity to lighter moments. ...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1537 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 101 101: Clause 58, page 28, line 40, leave out ““subserviate it to”” and insert ““subord...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1538 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean I can move the amendment formally? However, I am happy to wait for Report. I beg leav...

Lord Myners | 706 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to concede the point.

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1538 (Link to this contribution) Clause 60: Third party compensation: mandatory provision Amendment 104 104: Clause 60, page 29, li...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1539 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendment 104A and in support of Amendment 104. I seek to introduce another piece...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1538 (Link to this contribution) I temporarily lost my notes. I was about to move the next amendment, which might have confused the M...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1540 (Link to this contribution) We discover our old friend flexibility has come back again; the flexibility not to have the third-pa...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1539-40 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken to their amendments. The Government’s current plan is t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1541 (Link to this contribution) I am moving the amendment on a probing basis. Clause 61 deals with the sources of compensation for t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1540 (Link to this contribution) Clause 61: Sources of compensation Amendment 105 105: Clause 61, page 30, line 30, leave out parag...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1541-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply and for the one example, which at first sight certainly seemed a...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1541 (Link to this contribution) The Government’s response to this amendment is fairly straightforward, and, I hope, constructive. I ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly take that point on board.

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1542 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 105 withd...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1488 (Link to this contribution) I will not delay the Committee further, because we have other business this evening. However, the Mi...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1488 (Link to this contribution) I do not have a great deal to add, apart from the obvious fact that we are not talking about valuati...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1487-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not explained why, in his words, the Treasury ““may need”” to specify assumptions. ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1487 (Link to this contribution) I intend to do so. The noble Baroness will have noticed that I commented on other contributions to t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1487 (Link to this contribution) It may help the noble Lord if I remind him that I specifically did not challenge subsection (3). I a...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1486 (Link to this contribution) On that last point, if that is what the Explanatory Notes achieve, we will look at them with a view ...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1532 (Link to this contribution) I told the Minister at the outset that I was probing the content of subsection (4), not challenging ...

Lord Myners | 706 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister in the other place might have run out of steam, but quite clearly the noble Baroness ha...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1531 (Link to this contribution) This is a probing amendment that seeks to delete Clause 58(4). The clause deals with resolution fund...

Lord Myners | 706 c1533-5 (Link to this contribution) I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said that this is a probing amendment. There is not a g...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1533 (Link to this contribution) The amendment raises a number of interesting issues concerned with a bank in temporary public owners...

Lord Myners | 706 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The provision is designed to ensure that there is no doubt regarding the intention that that obligat...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1535 (Link to this contribution) The Minister made an interesting digression on the future nature of the financial services industry ...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1532 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 100 100: Clause 58, page 28, line 37, leave out subsection (6)

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 102. The amendments seek to delete subsections (6) and (7) of Clause...

Lord Myners | 706 c1535 (Link to this contribution) I believed that I had done that when I said that this was subordinate to the objectives of the Bill....

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1535 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister: why would it not be appropriate to have a resolution that the fund ““shall”” req...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1484-5 (Link to this contribution) Effectively, the valuation principles which the independent valuer will have to use may, as my noble...

Lord Norton of Louth | 706 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I understand why this clause has arisen but, like other noble Lords, I have come to the conclusion t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1483-4 (Link to this contribution) Clause 57: Valuation principles Debate on whether Clause 57 should stand part of the Bill. I tabl...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1484 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister assure the Committee that the compensation scheme order referred to in Clause 57 w...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1482-3 (Link to this contribution) I am under constant pressure to show that we are creating a truly independent role for the valuer. T...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1483 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, I can see what the aim is. My problem is only that the Bill becomes more and more complicate...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1482 (Link to this contribution) Clause 56: Independent valuer: money Amendment 98B 98B: Clause 56, page 27, line 11, leave out par...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1482 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled this probing amendment in an attempt to understand why we need monitors. In the propos...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1481-2 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I can see now that my amendment should simply have sought to leave out paragraph (a) of...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1481 (Link to this contribution) I thought that there was always a right of appeal under common law. I am absolutely not contesting t...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1481 (Link to this contribution) We think that the word ““reconsideration””, and therefore this part of the clause, is an essential p...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1480 (Link to this contribution) That is interesting. I shall consider that further, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amen...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1480 (Link to this contribution) Clause 55: Independent valuer: supplemental Amendment 98A 98A: Clause 55, page 26, line 37, leave ...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1480 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief because we have had an extensive discussion about independence, which will ver...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1480 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall not be speaking at cross-purposes with the noble Viscount. We had anticipated th...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1479 (Link to this contribution) We always look with the greatest care at developments in the debates in this House and I will certai...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1479-80 (Link to this contribution) When he looks at subsection (2) following the intervention of my noble friend Lord Higgins, the Mini...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1480 (Link to this contribution) I will, of course, consider those matters. We are certainly governed by the convention and have to m...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1476-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 98 adds a new requirement for the independence of an independent valuer to be defined in a...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1477 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend on this point. It is obviously very important that anyone acting as a valu...

Lord Eatwell | 706 c1475-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I am especially grateful to t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1476 (Link to this contribution) Clause 54: Independent valuer Amendment 98 98: Clause 54, page 26, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) An...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1478-9 (Link to this contribution) We shall certainly ensure that the valuer is independent. We seek to distance authorities from the a...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1477 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment, which raises issues which run through...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1477-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make a small point. The Minister said that the independent valuer would be appointed by an...

Lord Blackwell | 706 c1474 (Link to this contribution) I have sympathy with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, not just for equity rea...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1474-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords, but on this occasion I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bl...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1473-4 (Link to this contribution) The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is interesting. One point raised by lawyers who ha...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1471-2 (Link to this contribution) The Government fully accept that it is crucial for the partial transfer safeguards to work effective...

Lord Northbrook | 706 c1472 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of rehashing an earlier debate, it seems that under Clause 10 the panel can advise the T...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1472 (Link to this contribution) The Treasury would act in a foolish way if it ignored what the expert liaison group offered to it, p...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1472-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lord Northbrook for his participation in the debate. I agree with him that i...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1473 (Link to this contribution) I undertake to take that point on board.

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1473 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amend...

Lord Eatwell | 706 c1473 (Link to this contribution) Clause 49: Orders Amendment 97 97: Clause 49, page 24, line 26, at end insert— ““(5) The exercise ...

Lord Eatwell | 706 c1473 (Link to this contribution) The amendment attempts to come at this vexed question of netting and transfers, especially partial t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1470 (Link to this contribution) This amendment would insert a new clause after Clause 48 requiring a report or annual assessment to ...

Lord Northbrook | 706 c1470-1 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment because it seems eminently sensible that the Treasury should p...

Lord Eatwell | 706 c1449-50 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment 80 is grouped with that moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The dilemma we face h...

Lord Newby | 706 c1449 (Link to this contribution) I want to underline the noble Baroness’s last point—the industry is extremely concerned about these ...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1449 (Link to this contribution) I expect that there is an issue of principle—the absolutely basic fact of splitting a bank, to use t...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1445 (Link to this contribution) Clause 42: Supplemental instruments Amendment 77 77: Clause 42, page 19, line 34, at end insert— “...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1445 (Link to this contribution) I can be brief on Amendment 77, which adds a new paragraph (c) to Clause 42(3), which deals with sup...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1445 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the way in which she expressed her amendment. We were somewh...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1445 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that the clause deals with the case where the original instrument provides for the...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1445-6 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated, we were not quite sure about the nature of the noble Baroness’s amendment. The Bank ...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1446 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that long explanation, in the middle of which I think I heard the answer to...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1446-7 (Link to this contribution) Clause 47: Restriction of partial transfers Amendment 78 78: Clause 47, page 22, line 35, at end i...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1447-9 (Link to this contribution) We move to rather more complicated territory. Amendment 78 adds two new subsections to Clause 47. Th...

Lord James of Blackheath | 706 c1460-1 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendment 85, which is based on my great concern, from experience, of the confusi...

Lord Stewartby | 706 c1461 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may raise a very small point on Amendment 82 and seek some enlightenment from the Minister...

Lord Myners | 706 c1461-4 (Link to this contribution) We have covered the general purposes clause so I shall start by addressing the questions of the nobl...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1459 (Link to this contribution) Clause 48: Power to protect certain interests Amendment 81 81: Clause 48, page 23, line 14, leave ...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. I refer him again to paragraph 1.14 with which I start...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 706 c1460 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments 82 to 87.

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1459-60 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 81 and 95 amend Clause 48 by rewriting the definition paragraphs for security interests, ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1457-8 (Link to this contribution) We are seeking to be flexible; I hope that the noble Lord will recognise that we are seeking to be f...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1457 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to come back on this, but I still have not understood this rather simple point. As I unde...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble Viscount’s point. I hesitate to be too specific. The Committee will appreciat...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1458 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lord Higgins and I thank the Minister for his explanation. I assure the Comm...

Lord Higgins | 706 c1455 (Link to this contribution) I once saw on television an advertisement for an organisation called confused.com. I am not sure whe...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1454 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 79A 79A: Clause 47, page 23, line 5, leave out ““to transfers generally or””

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1454 (Link to this contribution) I think we have got as far as we can today. Anything the Minister can provide Members of the Committ...

Lord Eatwell | 706 c1454 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the Minister’s commitment to discussion on these matters prior to Report. By the tim...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1453 (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred to the responses that were due on 9 January. The questions were specific, and ...

Lord Myners | 706 c1453 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness will give way, I would be delighted to respond positively. The issue of legal ...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1452-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and the Minister for the spirit in which h...

Lord Myners | 706 c1450-2 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments relates to clauses which enable safeguards to be put in place in respect of...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1454-5 (Link to this contribution) Before seeking to achieve certainty and the removal of a degree of flexibility with this amendment, ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1468-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing her two amendments. As she rightly said, the fir...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1467 (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendment 92. These are probing amendments to explore the consequences of no s...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1469 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I understand the Government’s rationale in respect of ““may”” o...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1470 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 96 96: After Clause 48, insert the following new Clause— ““Report on partial property tra...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1469 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 93 and 94 93: Clause 48, page 23, line 39, after first ““to”” insert ““protected”” 94:...

Lord Myners | 706 c1466-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 86 and 87 86: Clause 48, page 23, line 20, leave out ““includes,”” and insert ““are arra...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1467 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 88 88: Clause 48, page 23, line 24, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1466 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment 81 withdrawn.

Lord Myners | 706 c1466 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 82 to 84 82: Clause 48, page 23, line 15, after ““acquires”” insert ““, by way of securi...

Lord Myners | 706 c1465 (Link to this contribution) I suggest to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, whose considerable knowledge relating to mortgage lend...

Viscount Eccles | 706 c1464-5 (Link to this contribution) Does experience arising from Northern Rock, which has now had a certain run, and with Bradford & Bin...

Lord Myners | 706 c1464 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly ensure that that is taken into account. I respect the fact that the noble Lord is p...

Lord James of Blackheath | 706 c1464 (Link to this contribution) I greatly appreciate that information. When drafting that response, will the noble Lord bear in mind...

Lord Myners | 706 c1466 (Link to this contribution) I thought I had answered the query that the noble Lord, Lord Stewartby, raised. From recollection, t...

Lord Stewartby | 706 c1466 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend withdraws her amendment, can the Minister respond to the queries I raised?

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1465-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank all the noble Lords who have taken part. In respect of the intervention made by my noble fri...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1537 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is even more fun. Amendments 101 and 103 replace the words ““subserviate it to”” with...

Lord Stewartby | 706 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will have another look at this clause in the light of this debate and the p...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1456-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. I will do my best to an...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 706 c1547 (Link to this contribution) Wearing his consumer hat, and given his obvious interest in the subject, has the noble Lord looked a...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 706 c1533 (Link to this contribution) I should inform the Committee that if this amendment is agreed I cannot call Amendment 101 by reason...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1535 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to prolong this debate unnecessarily, but that is exactly what subsection (6)(a) says,...

Lord Whitty | 706 c1542 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 105A 105A: After Clause 62, insert the following new Clause— ““Competition and consumer i...

Baroness Noakes | 706 c1531 (Link to this contribution) Clause 58: Resolution Fund Amendment 99 99: Clause 58, page 28, line 29, leave out subsection (4)

Lord Higgins | 706 c1479 (Link to this contribution) This matter would seem to have more substance than one might have thought at first. I take it from w...

Lord Myners | 706 c1454 (Link to this contribution) I will provide the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, with a reply in writing, or perhaps later in Committ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1469 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 89 to 91 89: Clause 48, page 23, line 26, leave out ““security interests or set-off or n...

Subjects

Disclosure of information Compensation Codes of practice Assets Bank services Banks Competition Delegated legislation Bank of England Capital Liability Financial services Financial institutions Insolvency Financial Services Authority Private sector Property transfer Public sector Mergers Nationalisation Scotland Small businesses Valuation Treasury

Legislation

Banking Bill 2007-08 to 2008-09

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk