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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 5 March 2009, in the House of Lords.

Health Bill [HL]

Health Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 12 to 18 agreed to. Schedules 2 and 3 agreed to. Clause 19 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
708 c323-80GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department of Health
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c345GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74A 74A: Clause 13, page 10, line 38, at end insert— "( ) the Care Quality Commission,"
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c335GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, on this. I have a key question: what ...
Show all contributions (147)
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c364GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Earl leaves that point, has he consulted the Saskatchewan Government on that and as...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c362GC (Link to this contribution) This morning I called in to my local tobacconist/newsagent. He was standing outside the shop, smokin...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c361GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to answer that point. We will probably discuss those issues in more detail as time goes o...
Lord Naseby | 708 c361GC (Link to this contribution) Is it not a fact that under the 2004 point-of-sale regulations, there was a definition of a point of...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c358GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, have been thinking about how what we have been discussing would work in practice. I imagine ...
Baroness Golding | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) I beg the noble Baroness’s pardon but she has not answered my question. What is under discussion? Do...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c353-4GC (Link to this contribution) Are we not taking a rather large hammer to hit a very small nut? It seems absurd that the Government...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c372GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Laird, asked why some of us in England were opposed to this legislation. I can ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c349-50GC (Link to this contribution) This is the lawyers at their best. Amendment 79 is a technical amendment to replace the words, "a Na...
Earl Howe | 708 c350GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad I asked that question. We have discovered a new species, which must always be a good thing...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c350-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 81 requires the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament along with the notice...
Earl Howe | 708 c338-9GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord does not misunderstand me. There would be risk for some people. One would certainly h...
Earl Howe | 708 c339GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 73 73: Clause 13, page 10, line 33, after "it" insert "necessary and"
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c338GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the noble Earl a question in order to assist people when they read Hansard. In the...
Earl Howe | 708 c331-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. I know that I am a miserable old Tory Scrooge—I am sure that the...
Earl Howe | 708 c332GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 13: Trust special administrators: NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts 72: Clause 13, page 1...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c366GC (Link to this contribution) I have immense admiration for the noble Earl, but I find it quite difficult to understand where he i...
Earl Howe | 708 c366GC (Link to this contribution) The issue is not point-of-sale advertising, it is point-of-sale display. As the noble Baroness knows...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c365GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for letting me intervene. What we are discussing is important, bu...
Earl Howe | 708 c365GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is absolutely right, and that point can be made with particular force in relation...
Earl Howe | 708 c363-4GC (Link to this contribution) With the opportunity of this clause stand part debate, we can now discuss what is undoubtedly the mo...
Earl Howe | 708 c365GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, my noble friend is right in that those are broadly the characteristics of that province. If one...
Earl Howe | 708 c365GC (Link to this contribution) It is a very important point of detail and I am grateful to the noble Earl. I have a list of all the...
Baroness Barker | 708 c359GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85 85: Clause 19, page 24, leave out lines 1 to 15
Baroness Thornton | 708 c360GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85 is the lead amendment of this group. The amendments would remove the power for the appr...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c360-1GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned the concern that shopkeepers have about this new regulation. What steps have ...
Lord Naseby | 708 c362GC (Link to this contribution) I will just make a point on trading standards and then I will sit down. The Minister said that tradi...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c357-8GC (Link to this contribution) I must confess that I am more confused now than when we started the debate. It is difficult legislat...
Earl Howe | 708 c355GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 83 and 84. These amendments are designed as a means of asking the M...
Earl Howe | 708 c355GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 19: Prohibition of tobacco displays etc. Amendment 82 82: Clause 19, page 23, line 16, leav...
Lord Borrie | 708 c355-6GC (Link to this contribution) I fully understand the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I hope the Minister has got an answ...
Earl Howe | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful short debate. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her Answer although I s...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) We have had a series of discussions with the whole of the tobacco industry and retailers. The 50 sho...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c353GC (Link to this contribution) There are only 50 shops. Did I hear that right?
Baroness Thornton | 708 c353GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I have given a reasonable explanation. We intend to consult and are indeed in discussio...
Earl Howe | 708 c351GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, which partially reassures me. I am always anxious to spare Mini...
Viscount Simon | 708 c380GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until next Monday.
Baroness Thornton | 708 c380GC (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the Committee do now adjourn until Monday 9 March at 3.30 pm, when we can resume ...
Earl Howe | 708 c376-7GC (Link to this contribution) My case is that trade will be deflected from small shops to supermarkets, but also on to the black m...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c376GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly on this issue, about which everyone in the Room obviously feels strongly which...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c374GC (Link to this contribution) But if you are addicted to a product and you therefore use more of it, and you then have to suffer t...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c374GC (Link to this contribution) I see now where the noble Lord is going. And of course the more chocolate you eat, the more addicted...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c369-70GC (Link to this contribution) It would be hard for me to disagree more with what my noble friend has said. I should declare an unp...
Lord Monson | 708 c371-2GC (Link to this contribution) The Government’s rationale for Clause 19 seems to be based on the curious assumption that teenagers ...
Earl Howe | 708 c367GC (Link to this contribution) That is a question for the Norwegian Government. I now turn to the other part of the equation, the ...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c367GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, why has Norway decided that it will impose a ban on public display by this November?
Baroness Thornton | 708 c367GC (Link to this contribution) I am meeting them next week. I have been trying to meet them for about a month.
Earl Howe | 708 c368GC (Link to this contribution) I have not done either of those things although I would be very willing to. I am always willing to l...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c324-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment, jointly tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tonge, seeks to ensure t...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c323GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 12: Innovation prizes Amendment 71 71: Clause 12, page 9, line 30, at end insert— "( ) The ...
Baroness Young of Old Scone | 708 c347-8GC (Link to this contribution) I know that this is probably infringing the Addison rules yet again, but so be it. The point that ne...
Earl Howe | 708 c349GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 79 79: Clause 13, page 12, line 14, leave out "a National Health Service" and insert "an ...
Earl Howe | 708 c350GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 81 81: Clause 13, page 15, line 9, at end insert "with a report stating the reasons for t...
Earl Howe | 708 c350GC (Link to this contribution) I mentioned earlier that when the Secretary of State makes an order to appoint a trust special admin...
Earl Howe | 708 c342GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply; I shall have to read in Hansard the first part of it, which I di...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c342GC (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State can direct the trust special administrator on how to consult. That is only a ...
Earl Howe | 708 c342GC (Link to this contribution) I understand and I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. I beg leave to withdraw the a...
Earl Howe | 708 c342GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74 74: Clause 13, page 10, line 38, at end insert— "( ) staff of the trust,"
Earl Howe | 708 c342-3GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak at the same time to Amendments 77, 78 and 80. The amendments can be dealt with very si...
Earl Howe | 708 c345GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Minister’s reassurance as to what he expects to happen prior to and during an administ...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c345-6GC (Link to this contribution) Continuing with the theme of consultation, the three amendments in this group would include the Care...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c346-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 74A, 78A and 80A laid by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, would require the Care Qual...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c335-8GC (Link to this contribution) I will spend a bit of time going through this group, Amendments 72 and 76, tabled by the noble Earl,...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c340-2GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 73 and 75 seek clarification on how the powers will be used in relation to triggering the...
Earl Howe | 708 c339-40GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 73 and 75 deal with two separate but important issues. New Section 65B(2) of the National...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c340GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend in stating that administration would be the last resort. That goes without...
Earl Howe | 708 c338GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate and I thank all those who have taken part in it. I am grateful to the ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c330GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way, because I cannot resist intervening. While we are on the subjec...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c330-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that suggestion and I would be more than happy to look into it. I could not agree ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 708 c334GC (Link to this contribution) What would happen if the noble Baroness had her way? If a trust got itself into trouble, who would f...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c334GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure I can talk about who would fund the liabilities, but certainly we would propose anothe...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c335GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that anyone other than the taxpayer in the end can bail out a hospital, whether you ca...
Earl Howe | 708 c332-4GC (Link to this contribution) We move to Part 2 and the clauses relating to trust special administrators. I am moving Amendment 72...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c334GC (Link to this contribution) I have no support from Monitor, although I am a member of that regulatory body, to speak on its beha...
Lord Naseby | 708 c366GC (Link to this contribution) Before we leave that point, if there is evidence from around the world where a ban has been imposed ...
Earl Howe | 708 c364GC (Link to this contribution) I am aware that the Saskatchewan Government believe that this has made a contribution to the decline...
Baroness Barker | 708 c363GC (Link to this contribution) I think I would like to thank everyone who took part in the debate. I thank the Minister for her ans...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c362GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, indicated, large quantities of briefing material have been circu...
Earl Howe | 708 c359GC (Link to this contribution) We cannot tell in advance how frequently this procedure will take place and it is idle to speculate ...
Baroness Barker | 708 c359-60GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 85 and the consequential Amendments 108, 110 and 111 are intended to probe what the Govern...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c361GC (Link to this contribution) The plain truth is that following the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, the tobacco indust...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c359GC (Link to this contribution) I have not been to Canada, but I do not think I need to have been there to understand what its polic...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c357GC (Link to this contribution) It might help if I went into slightly more detail. As the Bill is drafted, a retailer may display t...
Earl Howe | 708 c357GC (Link to this contribution) So we are no further forward at all. The purpose of the amendment was to ask the Minister how on ear...
Lord Naseby | 708 c358GC (Link to this contribution) I imagine that the Minister must have been to Canada and seen Saskatchewan. I have had the privilege...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c358GC (Link to this contribution) Can I take the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, a little further? It is controllable in a ...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c359GC (Link to this contribution) I promise the noble Lord that I will go into greater detail about Canada under clause stand part. He...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) When we make regulations there will be a formal consultation process, as the noble Baroness will kno...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) We are talking about 50 shops. How many children will see these advertisements, or whatever they may...
Baroness Golding | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) How is the consultation with the 50 shops proceeding? Is it proceeding slowly or quickly? What is un...
Lord Naseby | 708 c353GC (Link to this contribution) That is nonsense. There is an existing provision; we have 50 outlets; the age group who go in to the...
Earl Howe | 708 c353GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her reply. I still do not quite understand why the existing provisions in t...
Earl Howe | 708 c351-2GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 18: Prohibition of advertising: exclusion for specialist tobacconists Debate on whether Clau...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c377-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for listening carefully to the concerns of small businesses. Afte...
Baroness Golding | 708 c378-80GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I, too, have never smoked and have no desire to smoke. However,...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c375-6GC (Link to this contribution) My father used to live in Northern Ireland; it is a great place with great people. I welcome the fac...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c374-5GC (Link to this contribution) Drink, indeed. Not only drink, but chocolate. I have to restrict my intake very firmly, otherwise I ...
Lord Laird | 708 c375GC (Link to this contribution) As someone who was mentioned by the noble Lord, I should say that on most occasions I agree with him...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c374GC (Link to this contribution) If I may correct the noble Lord, I said that one of the tobacco industry’s great lies, after it had ...
Lord Rea | 708 c371GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl and others have mentioned the legality of the product. Indeed, the noble Earl quoted ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c372-3GC (Link to this contribution) Yes—heart trouble and cancer. Red wine was going to cure everything. That is why drinking went up. P...
Earl Howe | 708 c367GC (Link to this contribution) That is good news. I know that the retailers have been trying to meet Ministers for a lot longer tha...
Earl Howe | 708 c368GC (Link to this contribution) The representatives of Canadian small shops have asked to see me and I shall be meeting them in a fe...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c368GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Earl have any information about the impact of these display bans on small newsagents ...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c328GC (Link to this contribution) I think that both noble Lords who have spoken are being a bit curmudgeonly about this. Prizes are mu...
Earl Howe | 708 c328GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness will not hear me speak one word against the idea of a contest and having winners....
Earl Howe | 708 c325-7GC (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill. I should like to spend a few minutes lo...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c325GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that reply and apologise if he had to repeat some of the things h...
Earl Howe | 708 c349GC (Link to this contribution) In moving this amendment, I descend once again and with some apologies into the realms of drafting. ...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c348GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the intervention of the noble Baroness in relation to the CQC’s role after a draft...
Baroness Cumberlege | 708 c349GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for her interven...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c343-5GC (Link to this contribution) The effects of Amendments 74, 77, 78 and 80, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baro...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c335GC (Link to this contribution) Not for foundation trusts at all? Then that is fine. Maybe the Minister can assure me that it will b...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c364-5GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to ask a further question, but I ask the Committee to forgive me because I know very l...
Lord Laird | 708 c362-3GC (Link to this contribution) Coming from Northern Ireland, I am pleased to say that earlier this week the Assembly there passed a...
Lord Naseby | 708 c365GC (Link to this contribution) I can help my noble friend on that. Saskatchewan is a province, not a state, in a rural part of Cana...
Lord Monson | 708 c361-2GC (Link to this contribution) In replying to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the Minister suggested that there would be no question...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c362GC (Link to this contribution) LACORS approached the tobacco industry for its 2006 review of point-of-sale displays. It seeks to re...
Lord Naseby | 708 c359GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot get away with that. I did not introduce Canada, the size of its displays and the...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c356-7GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend and the noble Earl are right: we will be discussing the substantive issues on clause...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c358GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl has expressed it better than I could myself and he is absolutely right. The majority ...
Earl of Listowel | 708 c354GC (Link to this contribution) Having spoken with newsagents, what comes across to me is their concern about the amount of bureaucr...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c352-3GC (Link to this contribution) The clause, together with Schedule 4, replaces the automatic exclusion for specialist tobacconists f...
Lord Naseby | 708 c352GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend on the Front Bench. I do not want to be repetitious but if you are running...
Baroness Thornton | 708 c380GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee is supposed to wind up at six o’clock. It seems that we are unlikely to get through th...
Baroness Meacher | 708 c377GC (Link to this contribution) In response to that point, I would simply suggest that I am not so confident about that when a group...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c374GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, but it is not the nicotine that kills. Nicotine does not cause lung cancer. It may be addictive...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c373GC (Link to this contribution) That is from the medical profession. There is another article in the Daily Mail of Friday, 27 Februa...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 708 c373GC (Link to this contribution) I am being kind. The fact is, though, that he never did anything of this sort. It did not even enter...
Lord Laird | 708 c370-1GC (Link to this contribution) I want to return to those points. I am somewhat surprised that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, seeks to t...
Earl Howe | 708 c371GC (Link to this contribution) To answer the noble Lord, we are in a situation where Parliament is clearly not going to outlaw toba...
Lord Borrie | 708 c368-9GC (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Earl, who made an impressive and powerful speech. One can sum it up by indicating...
Earl Howe | 708 c366GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend. It is not just me who is saying this; the Norwegian Ministry of He...
Lord Laird | 708 c368GC (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Earl discussed this with the retailers in Northern Ireland who support the ban? Has he...
Lord Darzi of Denham | 708 c328-30GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the contributions made by noble Lords. Let me start by reminding the Committee of ...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 708 c323GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as th...
Baroness Murphy | 708 c327-8GC (Link to this contribution) I add my note of scepticism to the notion of innovation prizes. I particularly want to ask the Minis...
Baroness Tonge | 708 c323-4GC (Link to this contribution) Before I speak to the amendment, I would like to make a few general points and seek a bit of clarifi...
Subjects
Children Administration Advertising Canada Health services Finance Governing bodies Health hazards Exemptions Insolvency Innovation Health authorities NHS Patients NHS trusts NHS foundation trusts Standards Young people Shops Tobacco Iceland Prizes Monitor Care Quality Commission
Legislation
Health Bill (HL) 2008-09
Link
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