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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 11 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clause 1 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c115-74GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c172GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes an interesting point. I would need to review the guidance to see quite what ter...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c172GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister—I am aware of the passage of time. The Minister would help me enormous...
Show all contributions (132)
Baroness Murphy | 711 c143-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I think we have to get real about what happens in practice. What normally h...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c154-5GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments would remove some clarity concerning the scope of the powers that the Secretary of ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c152GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19 19: Clause 1, page 3, line 14, leave out "(by whatever means)"
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c160-1GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. I find myself broadly having common cause with the noble Lord, ...
Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c134-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for that explanation. My reference to the culture of disbelief wa...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister because he is addressing some of the real difficulties we were struggl...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness presses me on a point on which it is difficult to be specific. I am sure that she...
Lord Rix | 711 c140GC (Link to this contribution) Of course there will always, regrettably, be a shortage of jobs for people with a learning disabilit...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c135-6GC (Link to this contribution) The two amendments in this group constitute what I hope will be a fairly quick probe. First, I seek ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I would be extremely grateful for that. It certainly is not the point of this probing amendment to m...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may respond briefly on the specific point about lifting sanctions. We are looking at ways ...
Lord Rix | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 15 15: Clause 1, page 2, line 40, at end insert— "( ) Regulations under this section must...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but Amendment 75 comes up later. I have not spoken to it at this stage.
Countess of Mar | 711 c127GC (Link to this contribution) To help the noble Lord, it is Amendment 76 that is grouped with these amendments. Amendment 75 is no...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c129GC (Link to this contribution) I am so sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I did not entirely understand where all the things th...
Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, strongly support these amendments, perhaps for a slightly indirect reason as well as a direc...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c173-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to those who joined the debate for the support that they gave me and to the Minis...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c166-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to support the thrust of the amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Northbo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c172GC (Link to this contribution) We are talking about Clause 1, not Clause 2.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c143GC (Link to this contribution) The outsourcing of government services to companies, charities and voluntary organisations is now co...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c145GC (Link to this contribution) I am not an expert; I defer to colleagues who know more about this than me, but I refer to my declar...
Lord Rix | 711 c146GC (Link to this contribution) I am obviously disappointed that the Minister cannot agree with me completely at the outset. I look ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c155GC (Link to this contribution) I was just saying that that formulation of wording to cover these sorts of circumstances has already...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c151GC (Link to this contribution) I believe that it is entirely reasonable for the criteria to be counted as part of the evaluation an...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution) In any event, I am delighted that the noble Lord is keen to ensure that the national minimum wage is...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c146-7GC (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, I am at it again—probing, that is. New Section 17A(9)(a) speaks of hards...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c162-4GC (Link to this contribution) Since they came to power, this Government have put a lot of effort into addressing social and family...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c162GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 22A 22A: Clause 1, page 3, line 47, at end insert— "17C Regulations pursuant to sections ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c161-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lord Kirkwood and the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for supporting this very...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c159-60GC (Link to this contribution) We might finish Clause 2 within the next hour, but chance would be a fine thing. The noble Baroness,...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 23 and 26. These amendments would apply the super-affirmative proce...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I support the proposal for bells and whistles so eloquently proposed by my constitutionally expert n...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c158GC (Link to this contribution) The Liberal Democrat party clearly has a fixation on super-affirmative regulations. They have been m...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am not confusing them at all. We are dealing with Clause 1, which has nothing to do with the Flexi...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c133GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being very helpful. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, that it is evident...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c135GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. It has been incredibly lively and hel...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for the assurances given on childcare provisions. In the second c...
Countess of Mar | 711 c132GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord responds to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, perhaps I can say that there are ...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c140GC (Link to this contribution) I am very much in sympathy with the research project that is envisaged, but will the noble Lord, Lor...
Lord Rix | 711 c141GC (Link to this contribution) Not "mental illnesses", please, but "learning disability".
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c119-20GC (Link to this contribution) First, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate, including the noble Lord,...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c119GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness decides what to do with the amendment—I have no doubt what that decision w...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c117-9GC (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking my noble friend for this amendment, because it gives us an opportunity to focus ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c127GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, perhaps it is better if I stop at this point.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I thought it was grouped with this amendment. I have lost my list of groupings.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) We are talking partly about administrative processes. We are talking about regulations, some of whic...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c127-9GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Meacher for moving this amendment, which again has given us an opportun...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c168-72GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an exceptionally good debate and I thank everyone who has participated for the manner ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c142-3GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments, particularly Amendment 15, because it covers the needs of participan...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c141-2GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I will continue in the way that I started and intended. As I was saying, the first pr...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c145-6GC (Link to this contribution) It is certainly important and will be part of the contractual arrangements to which providers have t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c146GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 16 16: Clause 1, page 2, leave out lines 44 and 45
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c155GC (Link to this contribution) Once again, the Minister has been extremely helpful. I readily understand why it may be appropriate ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c152-4GC (Link to this contribution) I was tempted to table an amendment to leave out subsection (1) of new Section 17B in its entirety, ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c149GC (Link to this contribution) There is a lot of concern among a lot of people, not just the TUC, that it would be invidious if ben...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments, like Amendment 14, relate to hardship. Before I begin to address these specific am...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c150GC (Link to this contribution) It is not outwith the amendment, though.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c162GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 22 withdrawn.
Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c165GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee is most grateful to the Minister for the help that he has given us today and beforehan...
Lord Lucas | 711 c165-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have an interest in another subset of jobseekers, home-educating parents. Amendment 74 is in my na...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c156GC (Link to this contribution) That would make life much easier for all of us. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 19...
Countess of Mar | 711 c133GC (Link to this contribution) As indeed do my Amendments 55, 90 and 93.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c133GC (Link to this contribution) I get the impression that there is a hidden agenda here. The Bill and regulations rely on the good s...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution) I say to my noble friend Lady Hollis, who, as ever, expresses the dilemma very well and very clearly...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c133GC (Link to this contribution) I think that we are dealing with just one amendment now.
Countess of Mar | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I am in some difficulty. He said over and over again tha...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c131GC (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that I had been as clear as it was possible to be. Let me try again. It is for the paren...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c140GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that they are not doing their work properly. They may work like anything, but if...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c141GC (Link to this contribution) I put my name to the amendment because I agree with it in principle. I am delighted to hear from the...
Lord Rix | 711 c140GC (Link to this contribution) I tried to explain this at Second Reading. Mencap started the pathway employment service in 1976 in ...
Lord Rix | 711 c141GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify, this amendment is about all disabled people and all categories of disability. That inclu...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c141GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Rix, will be moving an amendment later about learning disabilities. This one is...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c135GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 13 13: Clause 1, page 2, line 28, leave out "26" and insert "13"
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c136-8GC (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that this is a probing amendment. I am grateful for the opportunity of developing the ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I am looking for some help on that question. I am told that it has been used, but perhaps I can gath...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c120GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 12 12: Clause 1, page 2, line 24, at end insert— "( ) Without prejudice to any regulation...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c119GC (Link to this contribution) It is not only at two years, but the two-year timescale was proposed because that fits in with the F...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c116GC (Link to this contribution) Does the word "skills" include the skills of motherhood, domestic work and caring for and management...
Lord Rix | 711 c116GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment for two reasons: first, the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, is sitting next to ...
Baroness Fookes | 711 c115GC (Link to this contribution) It seems highly unlikely but I have to remind the Grand Committee that, if there is a Division in th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I thought it was grouped with this amendment.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c123GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, the wording of this amendment to Clause 1—with its defini...
Countess of Mar | 711 c124GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. The Minister will recognise that it is one after my own heart. I am v...
Lord Rix | 711 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I notice that my noble friends Lord Ramsbotham and Lady Murphy referred to mental health conditions....
Baroness Crawley | 711 c174GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until 3.30 pm on Monday.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c172GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, but Clause 1 applies to those who are subject to the full conditionality of the JSA regime, whi...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c167-8GC (Link to this contribution) Although my name does not appear on these amendments in the Marshalled List, as I got in touch with ...
Lord Rix | 711 c142GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister responds, perhaps I may say that internationally recognised means of measurement...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) Like everyone who has spoken in this debate I fully support the sentiment behind it. I acknowledge t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c155GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that elucidation. Furthermore, the Minister said that the exact details of what I ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c151-2GC (Link to this contribution) First, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, particularly the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c151GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is talking about employment displacement, which is an important parallel concern. Will ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c149GC (Link to this contribution) I have been contacted by the TUC on various aspects of the Bill, with particular reference to "work ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c150GC (Link to this contribution) I must say, especially after what we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that I am...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c150GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment would entitle participants in a "work for your benefit" programme to payment of jobsee...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c147GC (Link to this contribution) I endorse the line of inquiry that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, is pursuing. It would be remis...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c148GC (Link to this contribution) I am, again, very grateful to the Minister. I am glad to hear that the onus is on the customer rathe...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c149GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 18 18: Clause 1, page 2, line 48, at end insert— "( ) The prescribed rate shall not be le...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c164-5GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support these amendments. Our earlier debate on childcare was very helpful, and the Minis...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c156GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 22 22: Clause 1, page 3, line 47, at end insert— "17C Procedure for regulations under sec...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c158GC (Link to this contribution) I am profoundly unhappy with the Bill and I should like to throw it out. It gives a blank cheque for...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c155GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is probably confusing the "work for your benefit" arrangements with the Flexible New ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c156GC (Link to this contribution) I will be happy to write, to try to satisfy the noble Lord.
Lord Rix | 711 c133GC (Link to this contribution) My later amendments, Amendments 54, 88 and 92, also address the worries about people receiving train...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c135GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention. I would like to stress one other point. In this process, it is ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c134GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may deal with the amendments in reverse order. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c130GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify with a helpful note from behind me, the regulations are currently provided, and will be p...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c132GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my noble friend because we are all interrupting his speech, but this is a really vita...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c131GC (Link to this contribution) Let me follow up this issue because it is tremendously important. The parent says, "I cannot find an...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c131GC (Link to this contribution) It depends on which benefit we are talking about, but the process would be engagement at the start o...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c141GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise. The problems are in identification. If they are self-confessed, all well and good, but ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I asked if the ultimate sanction had ever been used, to which I do not think I had a reply.
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c138GC (Link to this contribution) So it is work in progress, but it has not actually happened yet. That is useful and helpful addition...
Lord Rix | 711 c139-40GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 21. I thank noble Lords who have added their names—unbidden by me, I...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c116GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the kind of amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, has just spoken to...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) It is not surprising that the amendment has received support around the Committee, but is there not ...
Countess of Mar | 711 c116GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment, because it particularly brings in the over-50s, many of whom will hav...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c115GC (Link to this contribution) My reason for tabling this amendment is that I have become aware of the increasing level of unemploy...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c115GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Schemes for assisting persons to obtain employment: "work for your benefit" schemes etc. ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c126GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that we shall have to beg to differ, because I am on record many times over the years as...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c127GC (Link to this contribution) I was trying to clarify. Amendment 76 is in this group.
Baroness Meacher | 711 c120-3GC (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 12, I shall speak also to Amendments 38, 76 and 87, all of which provide a defin...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c124GC (Link to this contribution) I have added my name to three of these amendments. I think that it is important to add them to the B...
Baroness Afshar | 711 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) It is important to include mothers of children who are sick and unwell but are not disabled, and chi...
Lord Northbourne | 711 c125GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to spoil the frisson of anticipation that no doubt exists regarding what I shall say a...
Baroness Meacher | 711 c126GC (Link to this contribution) No, I did not particularly want the noble Lord to give way. However, it seems to me that in somethin...
Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) I admire the lengths to which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has gone in her amendments to sugges...
Subjects
Contracts Childcare Disadvantaged Charities Benefits rules Employment Jobseeker's allowance Jobcentre Plus Learning disability Home education Mental illness Pilot schemes Parents Pupil exclusions Pay Poverty Minimum wage Staff Lone parents Scotland Social security Social security benefits Voluntary organisations Training Transport Wales Unemployment Truancy Unemployed people Employment and support allowance Statutory instruments
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09
Link
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