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Committee proceeding and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 30 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
712 c35-94GC 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not dealing with that point directly. The reality is that there is a lot of work to ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure I necessarily accept the proposition that there is a higher risk of default for loans ...
Show all contributions (144)
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that anything in the provisions would prevent any provider—this is confirmed in a n...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c47-8GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting if concentrated debate about issues associated with the Social Fund and...
Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I endorse what the noble Baroness has just said. Since then, thanks to the Department for Work and P...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c65GC (Link to this contribution) Surely the problem that must be surmounted is whether fraud occurs at the application stage or when ...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 712 c35GC (Link to this contribution) Good afternoon. If anyone wishes to take their jacket off, they may do so. If there is a Division in...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c44-6GC (Link to this contribution) I will also speak to Clause 16 as a whole. It gives the Secretary of State power to restrict crisis ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c41GC (Link to this contribution) I shall have a lot more to say on the Social Fund when we reach the next group of amendments; this o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c36-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for the amendments and the chance to explain the Government’s position. One of t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c51GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister answers that question, something which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said tri...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c52GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that meticulous correction.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am very happy to do that. I ought to correct one thing that I said earlier. I said that the l...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c48GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is being extremely helpful and I am very grateful. As regards the 46 per cent succes...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c48GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain the degree to which the decision-making on the eligibility of loans is a c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c48-9GC (Link to this contribution) It should be clear that the discretionary Social Fund—obviously there is a regulated part of the Soc...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c49GC (Link to this contribution) A lot of water can flow under a bridge in 18 months.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c49GC (Link to this contribution) I believe that the answer to that is yes, it does. I recall a debate we had about 18 months ago on t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome my noble friend’s remarks. Could he press this issue, which has been raised on several occ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) They are clocking up. This is the second one so far in the Bill. How many more?
Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c58-9GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to raise a matter in connection with the government amendments which I have mentioned before ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to the other three amendments to Clause 20 standing in my name. They translate in...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c55GC (Link to this contribution) That is all very helpful. Of course, I am the first to agree that where we are talking about capital...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c61GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 138 138: Clause 21, page 25, line 10, at beginning insert "Until the abolition of income ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c65GC (Link to this contribution) Is any mediation allowed where someone who is not a benefit fraudster but is honest about all of his...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c65GC (Link to this contribution) I am appalled by what I hear. Many of the people who are in this situation have been on benefits or ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly understand the Minister’s rationale for saying that Amendment 138 is unnecessary, but I ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 23: State pension credit: pilot schemes Amendment 147 147: Clause 23, page 30, line 41, lea...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, would have thought that was the case. The Child Poverty Action Group and the citizens advice...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) This might be an appropriate moment for a short break. Since a number of Members of the Committee ha...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c44GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 128 128: Clause 15, page 18, line 41, at end insert— "( ) specify the appeals process tha...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c44GC (Link to this contribution) When I wound up what I was saying on this amendment, I referred back to the fact that the Minister e...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c41-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s amendment at first blush appeared to be surprisingly right-wing for an amendmen...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 127 127: Clause 15, page 18, line 20, leave out "is in receipt of a prescribed benefit" a...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c38GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and to the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and the noble Lord, Lord Skelm...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for this amendment, which gives me an opportunity, I hope, to g...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment would remove Clause 14(1)(b), which abolishes the carer’s allowance increase for adul...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c36GC (Link to this contribution) My Amendment 125, like Amendment 124 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, refers to the r...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c51GC (Link to this contribution) The answer to the second point is, "Absolutely". We would be very keen for credit unions to be engag...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister make the tables that he has been reading from available to noble Lords? I am sure...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c51GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my noble friend for answering with the statistics that he has to hand. It is e...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c47GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, I wonder whether in his reply he could help us further by giving us...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness’s amendment—it would imply the creation of an appeals p...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c49GC (Link to this contribution) When I had the honour of doing the Minister’s job in Northern Ireland, I had the opportunity to move...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) If there are any more, doubtless we will uncover them as we go through the extensive amendments that...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I shall deal first with the amendment to the amendment. On the question the noble Lord, Lord Skelmer...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c56GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to hear that. I should say, against my own proposal, that there is a downsid...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) Community care grants, to which Clause 18 relates, are the part of the Social Fund that provides mon...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c53GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 18: Community care grants relating to specified goods or services Amendment 131 131: Clause...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c54-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for tabling these amendm...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c57-8GC (Link to this contribution) I do not doubt that the Minister is right to say that the power should be there to make regulations ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c65GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the Committee disagrees about the need to ensure that vulnerable people do not u...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) Currently, benefit fraud remains at the lowest level ever recorded, our latest estimates showing tha...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I am slightly puzzled that the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas—although I really sympathise with her on ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) On the point that people are encouraged to sign up to an administrative penalty rather than test the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c67GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 22: Jobseeker's allowance: sanctions for violent conduct etc. in connection with claim Amend...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c67-8GC (Link to this contribution) We have all agreed that this is a framework Bill, but it occurs to me now that that is speaking rath...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that helpful intervention. On the issue of administrative penalties, an ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c35GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 14: Maternity allowance and carer's allowance Amendment 124 124: Clause 14, page 17, line 2...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, put his finger on o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c42-3GC (Link to this contribution) I gather from the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that we are likely to have a broader d...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I am reassured by what the Minister has just said. It emphasises, though, the need for individual ca...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. He has confirmed what was said in another place on this poin...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c38GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 15: External provider social loans Amendment 126 126: Clause 15, page 18, line 17, after se...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) With this trio of amendments we now come to the subject of the Social Fund. Clause 15 inserts a new ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the amendments because I am not certain what Clause 14 means. Do its provisions, ...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify the point about the external providers? I have two questions. First, who c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I revert to the amendment. Although I ask that it be withdrawn, I appreciate that it seeks t...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c52GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to everyone who has spoken in this important debate. We are teasing out more detail as...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c48GC (Link to this contribution) In terms of why the 54 per cent did not get an award, I refer my noble friend to the annual report f...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c60GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I rather suspected that this was a reformulation, or indeed a copy of...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the comments of my noble friend Lady Hollis. We will certainly pursue that point w...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c59GC (Link to this contribution) The comment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, partly solves my problem. I was going to say simply ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 134 to 136 134: Clause 20, page 22, line 41, leave out "a" and insert "any other" 135:...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c56GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 20: Payments on account Amendment 133 133: Clause 20, page 22, line 39, at end insert— "(1Z...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c55GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to—I hope—answer that question. We are not ruling out the use of a voucher system. Ma...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c57GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 133A (to Amendment A133) 133A: Clause 20, leave out line 4 and insert "where it is imprac...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 138 and 139 concern loss of benefits in the case of conviction for a benefit offence. I u...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c65GC (Link to this contribution) The problem occurs before this reaches prosecution when people are asked to accept the administrativ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 21 should stand part of the Bill. I did not table an amendment to this cl...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that Amendment 137 has been withdrawn, so I shall deal only with Amendments 138 and 139...
Lord Colwyn | 712 c66GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned for 15 minutes. Sitting suspended.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c72GC (Link to this contribution) The expectation is that one pilot will be sufficient to do the evaluation. Obviously decisions about...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Good. That is exactly what I was after. I am very grateful to the Minister and, as a result, I beg l...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c72GC (Link to this contribution) That is very helpful but it does not quite answer the question, which was: although the clause makes...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 24: Period for which pilot schemes have effect etc. Amendment 148 148: Clause 24, page 32, ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c72GC (Link to this contribution) In designing the pilot we have a duty to ensure that it is set up so as to provide good evidence on ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) That is helpful. The basic judgment of 36 months remains to be explored but this is not the right mo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful for that offer. I should certainly like the opportunity, at an appropriate m...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) We should be clear that allowing for 36 months is one thing; it does not necessarily mean that every...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I have a tabulation of the issues which arise under the Bill and the proposed length of piloting of ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) The point is that if we need a three-year period to pilot something and that pilot is going to be ca...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c75GC (Link to this contribution) I can well understand why longer pilots have a better chance of being applied for by contractors, bu...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c74-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for the amendment. The clause modernises the powers to pilot regulations unde...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c72-4GC (Link to this contribution) I could have spoken to Amendment 140 and the other amendments in that group but I chose not to. I re...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) I do not demur from that in the slightest. As I said, I thought that I heard the Minister utter the ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for her interest in this matte...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c71GC (Link to this contribution) With great respect, I do not think that I can let the noble Lord get away with that. The history of ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c70-1GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right in a sense; it is too early to address that in detail. The group that we ar...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 712 c70GC (Link to this contribution) I commend my noble friend on this. It will be wonderful if it works. It will square the circle of tr...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c68-70GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may start by reiterating what the Government have done on pension credit. When we came to ...
Countess of Mar | 712 c92GC (Link to this contribution) When these workshops are being run, are there people from the individual categories who give their e...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c92GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Countess, Lady Mar, makes a very important point. The whole concept of service users being...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c91GC (Link to this contribution) Are mystery shoppers used to monitor the performance of Jobcentre Plus advisers?
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether we do. I can see the benefits of doing so. I am advised from the Box that we d...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, has focused her thoughts on training and h...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 712 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for the amendment and all noble Lords who have spoken on it. The noble Ba...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c94GC (Link to this contribution) Would it be sensible for Clause 26 to stand part before we adjourn the Committee?
Baroness Crawley | 712 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I believe the Committee is expecting to debate another amendment.
Baroness Crawley | 712 c94GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn.
Baroness Crawley | 712 c94GC (Link to this contribution) As I was saying, perhaps this is a convenient moment to adjourn until Thursday at 2 pm.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 712 c94GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Thursday at 2 pm.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c92-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have supported the amendment. I apologise; I am not sure why it...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Before I go any further, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Freud, to our deliberations, who I think is ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Social security information is translated into many ethnic languages these days. Is the noble Barone...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) That is not clear. The cost implication would have to be gone into, and whether the beginning of the...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot give the noble Lord an immediate answer on that specific point, but I am very happy to writ...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord asked earlier about the language in the documents. I am happy to report that the DWP ...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c83GC (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Baroness give an assurance that these documents will be written in plain English?
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c83-4GC (Link to this contribution) I was thinking of something that could be put up in every Jobcentre Plus office so that everybody kn...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c84GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 25: Contracting out functions under Jobseekers Act 1995 Amendments 151 to 153 not moved. Am...
Countess of Mar | 712 c88GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, having already moved amendments on training, support the noble Baronesses’ amendment. I have...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 712 c88GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. For four years, I had the pr...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c84-6GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment would ensure that all Jobcentre Plus staff and contracted provider staff involved in s...
Baroness Meacher | 712 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support this amendment, which will not surprise the Minister since we have spoken about t...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment, which perhaps is one of the most important. Jobcentres would need to...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) We understand the thrust of the arguments of the noble Baroness and the noble Countess, Lady Mar, bu...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c81GC (Link to this contribution) I am with the Minister on this issue, because I do not think that the department needs to legislate ...
Baroness Meacher | 712 c80GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that there would be great value in including something in the Bill referring to the G...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c80GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that it would have got past the Public Bill Office if it did not refer to this Bill.
Countess of Mar | 712 c80GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment does not specify word for word what has to go into the charter. Those words can be cha...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c81-3GC (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, we want to hold onto the flexibility that not having this in the B...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c76GC (Link to this contribution) Last weekend the Minister in charge of public service reform, Mr Liam Byrne, said that the Governmen...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 712 c76GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 150 150: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause— "Claimants’ charter (1) Regula...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 712 c76-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. I thought that it was very admirable when I first saw it. It is clear that...
Lord Northbourne | 712 c77GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. It seems to me that it has enormous advantages. First, if it were sui...
Countess of Mar | 712 c77GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. Her timing is absolutely impeccabl...
Baroness Meacher | 712 c77-8GC (Link to this contribution) I also strongly support this amendment. Perhaps I should declare my interest as chair of a mental he...
Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 712 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, has made her case for a claimants’ charter. I was glad that she not...
Baroness Crawley | 712 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords will allow me to go into a little detail in response to our debate. I thank the n...
Subjects
Staff Complaints Disability Contracts Appeals Carers Community care Advisory services Community care grants Housing benefit Fraud Employment Jobseeker's allowance Income support Jobcentres Eligibility Income Jobcentre Plus Earnings rules Mental illness Pilot schemes Personal savings Pensions Payments Loans Lone parents Standards Social security benefits Maternity benefits Social security Social Fund Training Take-up Unemployed people Employment and support allowance
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09
Contains statistics
Yes
Link
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