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Opposition day on Monday, 6 July 2009, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Grayling. The answering member was Alan Johnson.

Identity Cards

Identity cards. Fifteenth opposition day debate (part 2). Motion negatived on division (293 to 206). Amendment agreed on division (283 to 203).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
495 c757-809 
Session
2008-09
Department
Home Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 495 c784 (Link to this contribution) Order. In order to try to get everyone into the debate, I am going to put a 10-minute limit on Back-...
Alan Johnson | 495 c766 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly do that, but the hon. Gentleman will have to be patient for a while. I am going thr...
Show all contributions (135)
Lord Grayling | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) My view is that we should do the minimum that we have to do. If data are submitted for a passport ap...
Mike Weir | 495 c766 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has just said that the identity card is about the safety of the British peo...
Alan Johnson | 495 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and add:""acknowled...
Lord Grayling | 495 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is talking complete nonsense. He needs to go back and read the I...
Martin Linton | 495 c764 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is very generous in giving way. But there we have it, do we not? The hon. Member ...
Lord Grayling | 495 c764 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On many occasions over the years, we have seen the Government in...
Ben Wallace | 495 c764 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that the fundamental difference is that the biometric passport database is a stat...
Lord Grayling | 495 c764 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. He is also right to point out the Government's lamentable ...
David Davis | 495 c763-4 (Link to this contribution) The issue is about more than the fact that we do not need to do this. I feel sympathy for my hon. Fr...
Lord Grayling | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. He needs to go and look at the legislation and he will...
Martin Linton | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) I know that there are 54 places on the computer where the information can be put, but all the inform...
Lord Grayling | 495 c762-3 (Link to this contribution) We will certainly cancel the national identity register. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we might be in...
Martin Linton | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) What will the hon. Gentleman achieve by abandoning the national identity register but maintaining a ...
Lord Grayling | 495 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has raised a valid point that I had planned to come on to in a moment. The trut...
Chris Huhne | 495 c762 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he will also cancel the contracts that are in place to establis...
Lord Grayling | 495 c760-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman clearly was not listening to what I said a moment ago. The big issue that we have...
David Davis | 495 c761 (Link to this contribution) It is no surprise to any of us that the Darth Vader of modern politics is in favour of the scheme. H...
Chris Huhne | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point, but I am not sure that I would accept that it is...
Lord Grayling | 495 c763 (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, it prompts the question why we need a database for national insurance numbers. ...
Baroness Smith of Malvern | 495 c759 (Link to this contribution) A central plank of the Opposition's argument is the savings that they argue could be made by scrappi...
Lord Grayling | 495 c759 (Link to this contribution) The credibility of what we say will be determined by whether this scheme is right or wrong. We have ...
James Clappison | 495 c759 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend struck by the fact that the right hon. Lady, one of the main architects of t...
Lord Grayling | 495 c758-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in the early part of this decade, we were more supportive of t...
Lord Grayling | 495 c759 (Link to this contribution) I will happily give way to the former Home Secretary.
Lord Grayling | 495 c760 (Link to this contribution) I understand that point. The issue for me, with the various different views coming out of the Govern...
Keith Vaz | 495 c760 (Link to this contribution) It is not the fact that Ministers have made different statements at different times that concerns so...
Bob Spink | 495 c760 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman explain to the House what the Conservative party intends to do to tighten up ...
Speaker | 495 c757 (Link to this contribution) May I inform the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister...
Nick Palmer | 495 c758 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he has consistently voted against these proposals. Will he cast his min...
Lord Grayling | 495 c758 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, if we had a proper border police force in this ...
Lord Redwood | 495 c758 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a very good point. Does he agree that it was always absurd to suppose that ...
Lord Robathan | 495 c801 (Link to this contribution) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Question put forthwith, That the Question be n...
Phil Woolas | 495 c801 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give way; I have very limited time. Another argument that is put forward is that the schem...
Chris Huhne | 495 c776 (Link to this contribution) Quite. The database fundamentally reverses the relationship between the individual and the state. T...
Nick Palmer | 495 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman accepts that fingerprints would be a good way of verifying the ...
Chris Huhne | 495 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The Government have rightly climbed down on applying for cards, and airside workers will n...
Chris Huhne | 495 c776 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman anticipates my next comment. The database would provide a check against the issue...
Martin Linton | 495 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) I ask the hon. Gentleman, in a genuine spirit of mystification, whether he is suggesting that the Pa...
Chris Huhne | 495 c775 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for pointing that out, and I simply return to the point that I w...
Mike Weir | 495 c775 (Link to this contribution) The figures from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) are based on the Governm...
Chris Huhne | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary should give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Alan Johnson | 495 c774 (Link to this contribution) I would prefer not to, just for the last few minutes of the debate, because my hon. Friend is a grea...
Lord Grayling | 495 c774 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way?
Alan Johnson | 495 c774 (Link to this contribution) No. Any sensible pragmatic Government would take advantage of the passport scheme to introduce a mo...
Chris Huhne | 495 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Opposition's motion on identity cards and have only one key point to make: the ID card...
Rob Marris | 495 c775 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I have re-done the figures on my calculator and they come to 36.6...
Alan Johnson | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) A further £379 million of the cost is for the compulsory identity card for foreign nationals, so I c...
Stephen Dorrell | 495 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) I would apply the same strictures to information held by all parts of the public sector, such as the...
Stephen Dorrell | 495 c784-6 (Link to this contribution) I listened with considerable care and interest to what the right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Ke...
David Leslie Taylor | 495 c786 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making a fair case in saying that a large, centralised register of this ...
Keith Vaz | 495 c782-4 (Link to this contribution) That is, indeed, a simple answer. We have paid for the infrastructure and technology to ensure that ...
David Drew | 495 c782 (Link to this contribution) Could the problem not be overcome simply by giving every adult in the country a biometric passport? ...
Keith Vaz | 495 c782 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend puts that well. I cannot answer for the Home Secretary, but I am sure that the Minist...
David Leslie Taylor | 495 c782 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend and I are both admirers of the new Home Secretary, but was it not a tad mislead...
Keith Vaz | 495 c780-2 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). I will probably have ...
Chris Huhne | 495 c780 (Link to this contribution) I am winding up now, and you have quite rightly told Front Benchers to keep it short, Mr. Deputy Spe...
Chris Huhne | 495 c780 (Link to this contribution) I certainly have, and I have taken into account their source. Could it be the same source that predi...
Chris Huhne | 495 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee for that observation, which reinforces t...
Martin Linton | 495 c779 (Link to this contribution) For the illumination of the House, will the hon. Gentleman add the estimated industry figure for the...
Chris Huhne | 495 c779 (Link to this contribution) I do not know which industry figure the hon. Gentleman is citing, but I am happy if he wants to inte...
Martin Linton | 495 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) The industry estimates published by the Home Office a couple of years ago were £1.1 billion for the ...
Speaker | 495 c777 (Link to this contribution) Order. That was a very long intervention. Front Benchers have not been quite as bad in this debate a...
Martin Linton | 495 c777 (Link to this contribution) I have heard some more well turned phrases, but I still do not understand the distinction that the h...
Keith Vaz | 495 c778 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems is that the UK Border Agency has been targeting the wrong employers and the wron...
Chris Huhne | 495 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Battersea is much more intelligent than he is letting on. The key problem is the...
Laura Moffatt | 495 c797 (Link to this contribution) I am deeply grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I certainly was present for the beginning of the deb...
Damian Green | 495 c797 (Link to this contribution) All right, I will give way to the hon. Lady, because I am like that.
Laura Moffatt | 495 c797 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mike Weir | 495 c794 (Link to this contribution) The Scottish National party has always opposed the identity card, and we will continue to oppose it....
Nick Palmer | 495 c794 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Todd | 495 c792-4 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer). He gave me some information that...
Laura Moffatt | 495 c796 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Damian Green | 495 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has not been present for the whole debate, so if she will excuse me I shall not, becau...
Mike Weir | 495 c794-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. I do not have much time. When my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthsh...
Damian Green | 495 c796 (Link to this contribution) This has been a most instructive debate: those who have always opposed identity cards now seem to do...
David Davis | 495 c789 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been making a thoughtful speech. One of the things that I object to about the...
Nick Palmer | 495 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am sure that is true, but my contention is that if we had the register without the cards, th...
Patrick Mercer | 495 c790-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my neighbour, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer). I wonder what t...
Nick Palmer | 495 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) I would certainly be willing to countenance that, because a mature dialogue can include that kind of...
Nick Palmer | 495 c787 (Link to this contribution) I put my name down to speak in the debate partly because, as mentioned earlier, I proposed the intro...
Paul Robert Holmes | 495 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the public were in favour of ID cards when they thought they ...
Nick Palmer | 495 c788 (Link to this contribution) As the debate has progressed, the satisfaction rate has not remained as high as it was, but it is st...
David Leslie Taylor | 495 c788 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is very knowledgeable about these issues from his previous life before entering this ...
Nick Palmer | 495 c788 (Link to this contribution) I am not absolutely sure that I have followed my hon. Friend's point. Is he saying that if we were t...
Phil Woolas | 495 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) The economics of that argument are ridiculous. The same could be said of the passport service. If, g...
Lord Grayling | 495 c800 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the Minister a simple question? The Home Secretary told us last week that the voluntary ID...
Rob Marris | 495 c800 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend can elucidate. From memory, the report gives the distinct cost of identity ca...
Phil Woolas | 495 c800 (Link to this contribution) I refer my hon. Friend to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, who explained clearl...
Phil Woolas | 495 c800 (Link to this contribution) I ought to give way to the hon. Gentleman, so that he can explain his own policy.
Damian Green | 495 c797-9 (Link to this contribution) I see no advantages to the identity card scheme, and I could happily discuss it with my colleagues i...
Phil Woolas | 495 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to serve under your speakership in this Chamber for the first time, Mr. Speaker. Ma...
Phil Woolas | 495 c800 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not, because I want to bust the other myth, too. The cost of the scheme is covered by th...
Damian Green | 495 c766-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman suggests that there was never any mention of terrorism. The Prime Minister ...
Lord Grayling | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman suggests that I have changed my mind. He clearly voted for motions and supp...
Alan Johnson | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is struggling a bit. The Prime Minister was absolutely right in everything that h...
Martin Linton | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend passes rather quickly over the vote in December 2004, but is he aware that all ...
Alan Johnson | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) Let me say it one more time: the platform on which we stood at the 2005 election—the manifesto that ...
Pete Wishart | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will know, because he pays great attention to such things, that the Scottis...
Alan Johnson | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend: it gets better and better all the time. So why, given all this and ...
David Winnick | 495 c767-8 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right, of course, to set out the attitude previously taken by the Tories—or ...
Alan Johnson | 495 c767 (Link to this contribution) This is not a devolved issue, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Of course, we have made it clear since 20...
Alan Johnson | 495 c768 (Link to this contribution) We will indeed mark four years since 7/7 tomorrow. I was on "Any Questions?" on 8 July 2005, the nex...
Alan Johnson | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Front Benchers, and then I will make some p...
Alan Johnson | 495 c771-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to cost in a moment. As for airside workers, we expect that ID cards would be made free...
Rob Marris | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) On the question of having a card instead of a passport, and the figures that my right hon. Friend ha...
Alan Johnson | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) It is a puzzle why Opposition Members support not just the passport but the necessary register of in...
Alan Johnson | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I do not know the answer to that question, but I will let the hon. Gentleman know. The point is that...
Lord Grayling | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I have a simple question for the Home Secretary: how many people will have to volunteer to take up a...
Speaker | 495 c771 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I ask Members who make interventions to be brief? There is a limited amount of time left ...
Chris Huhne | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way again, but I am slightly astonished by that reply...
Alan Johnson | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, unusually, has made a bit of spurious calculation; usually we leave that to the Oppo...
Alan Johnson | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I want to make progress, but I will give way one more time, to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverh...
Alan Johnson | 495 c769-70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is completely wrong. The assessment in 2003-04 of how much the NHS database would...
Chris Huhne | 495 c769 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Home Secretary for mentioning the NHS database, because it is a rather good exa...
Alan Johnson | 495 c769 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to that in a second, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that identity cards ...
Stephen Dorrell | 495 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the Home Secretary back to the subject of the efficacy of identity cards? I accept that ...
Alan Johnson | 495 c768 (Link to this contribution) That is obviously an issue in the debate. The simple fact is that the information that went missing ...
David Davis | 495 c768 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman—and friend. The simple truth is, of course, that the then Home Secr...
Alan Johnson | 495 c768 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) first.
Alan Johnson | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get on to the subject of the NHS database, although I am tempted. The simple fact i...
Rob Marris | 495 c770 (Link to this contribution) I remain a supporter of identity cards: in the context of illegal immigration, identity is a huge pr...
Martin Linton | 495 c773 (Link to this contribution) On that point, can my right hon. Friend see a difference between the official Opposition's policy on...
Chris Huhne | 495 c775 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, with whom I had the pleasure of serving on a Finance Bill ...
Lord Grayling | 495 c759-60 (Link to this contribution) It does indeed speak volumes, but then very few positive reasons for the scheme remain. One reason w...
Lord Grayling | 495 c757-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House believes the Government's identity cards scheme should be cancelled i...
Chris Huhne | 495 c777 (Link to this contribution) The key point about the national identity register is the access that other agencies will eventually...
Subjects
Data protection Databases Cost effectiveness Software Costs Airports ICT Genetics Identity cards Pilot schemes Privacy Security
Link
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