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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 19 January 2011, in the House of Lords.

Energy Bill [HL]

Energy Bill (HL). Lords committee stage (second day). Amendments and new clauses considered. Clauses 4-32 agreed. Grand Committee held in the Moses room.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
724 c61-114GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department of Energy and Climate Change
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Marland | 724 c103GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord asks a very good question, which I will seek to clarify. This clause gives the Secret...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c100GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that these same electricity and gas companies have the po...
Show all contributions (133)
Lord Grantchester | 724 c98-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 16E concerns prepayment meters. We wish to highlight the fact that there should be transpa...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c90GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment seeks to clarify some important aspects of the clause and identifies just wh...
Lord Moynihan | 724 c72GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is speaking with characteristic eloquence and expertise on this subject, but I wonde...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Another difficulty, which I referred to in our previous sitting, is that the householder faces a cho...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 724 c61GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c61GC (Link to this contribution) 10A: Clause 4, page 5, line 22, at beginning insert— ““( ) An assessment made and provided under thi...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the noble Lord would have given some indication of the range of improvements and be...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c61-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for my late arrival. The Chair will have saved me by indicati...
Earl Cathcart | 724 c65GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the first time that I have spoken in Committee, so I should declare that I am a la...
Lord Whitty | 724 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) Prompted by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I rise to speak to the amendment in my name. Amendment 11...
Lord Oxburgh | 724 c65GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in view of the concern that some noble Lords have expressed over the difficulty of achievi...
Lord Moynihan | 724 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as one who enjoyed spending Monday night in your Lordships’ House reading through every cl...
Lord Teverson | 724 c64GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although I do not entirely agree with this amendment, or the way in which it is written, I...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Following a slightly similar line of thought, but not exactly the same one, I think that, if you are...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) The attraction of this amendment is that it affords flexibility. A range of options will be availabl...
Baroness Northover | 724 c111GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may reassure the noble Lord that what is being sought here is a balance between bringing p...
Lord Teverson | 724 c111GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, one of the points where someone might want to repay is when there is a transfer of the debt...
Baroness Northover | 724 c109-10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 30 allows regulations to be made that set out when and how a bill payer’s liability...
Lord Whitty | 724 c110-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand and accept part of that argument. These regulations are going to be subject t...
Lord Whitty | 724 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution) I return now to the issue of fees and how they are referred to in a rather different context. Both t...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c109GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend in his Amendment 18 and his proposal regarding early repayment penalties u...
Baroness Parminter | 724 c108GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that very positive and reassuring reply, in terms of understanding both ...
Lord Whitty | 724 c108GC (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 30, page 19, line 32, leave out paragraph (a)
Lord Whitty | 724 c111GC (Link to this contribution) In view of the hour and the fact that we will be returning to this, I beg to withdraw. Amendment 18...
Baroness Northover | 724 c111GC (Link to this contribution) I may need to come back to noble Lords on that but, as I understand it, if people choose to repay ea...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 19A draws attention to the lack of detail in this clause in respect of appeals. While we a...
Lord Marland | 724 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his suggested amendment to Clause 31. This clause requires the Government...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c112GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply but, with respect, he has not addressed my point. We do not feel ...
Lord Marland | 724 c112GC (Link to this contribution) We have consulted the Ministry of Justice. We would not get to this point without having done so.
Lord Grantchester | 724 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for clarifying that. In his answer he referred to subsection (5), which is that...
Lord Marland | 724 c113GC (Link to this contribution) There is no greater authority on these things than the Secretary of State. He is responsible for del...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c113GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his consideration. He no doubt understands that we take this matter extreme...
Lord Whitty | 724 c113GC (Link to this contribution) 20: Clause 31, page 20, line 22, leave out ““(including any fee which may be payable)””
Lord Grantchester | 724 c111GC (Link to this contribution) 19A: Clause 31, page 20, line 17, leave out subsection (3)
Lord Whitty | 724 c114GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, since I packed my bag before we gave up, I will be brief. This group of amendments relates...
Lord Marland | 724 c114GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at this point in the proceedings the noble Lord’s views on fees are well known, and he has...
Lord Whitty | 724 c114GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on that basis, I withdraw the amendment. Amendment 20 withdrawn. Clause 31 agreed. Clau...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Committee is grateful to the noble Baroness for her amendment. She will see that we ag...
Baroness Parminter | 724 c104GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment provides for reporting on meeting our carbon reduction targets—an issue I raised at S...
Baroness Parminter | 724 c103-4GC (Link to this contribution) 17: Before Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— ““Annual report (1) The Secretary of State mu...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c103GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply, and it could well be that I am wide of the mark. He has explaine...
Baroness Northover | 724 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we fully support the underlying principles of these amendments, which are all about ensuri...
Baroness Maddock | 724 c107GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that, if we were not repealing the Home Energy Conservation Act, it is precisely...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. We have had repeated statements from the Minister to the effect that, in ma...
Baroness Maddock | 724 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution) An amendment of mine is in this group. I support what has been said about the importance of looking ...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, now we are in stand part discussions again, I draw to noble Lords’ attention some thoughts...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c100GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is perfectly entitled to make his point, but it does not refer to the point I was mak...
Lord Whitty | 724 c100-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure of the relevance of this argument to the actual clause before us. The issue ...
Lord Marland | 724 c101-2GC (Link to this contribution) There are two extremely valuable points here. If I may, I should like to defer the discussion on sma...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c98GC (Link to this contribution) I was speaking on the Question whether the clause should stand part. Clause 16 agreed. Clauses 17 ...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c98GC (Link to this contribution) 16E: Before Clause 21, insert the following new Clause— ““Additional green deal payments: gas and el...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c99GC (Link to this contribution) I discussed the whole question of consumers with prepayment meters at some length with the body repr...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c102GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their contribut...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 724 c98GC (Link to this contribution) Was the noble Lord speaking to the amendment or to the clause?
Lord Marland | 724 c97GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord looking for clarification on the domestic or the nondomestic sector?
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c97GC (Link to this contribution) This is a power that stretches across the board, so I want reassurance in both instances. The noble ...
Lord Marland | 724 c97GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for pressing me on this. There is a practice in place in the non-dom...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c97GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord; I would like a note from him on this point, because we have real an...
Lord Marland | 724 c96-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 16 permits the Secretary of State to modify gas and electricity supply licences to ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c97GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am largely satisfied with that reply. Can the Minister clarify one issue? When he talks ...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 724 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I should announce that there is an error in the wording on the Marshalled List. It should say ““Page...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c95-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the clarification on the terms of this amendment. The purpose of the amendment is ...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c97-8GC (Link to this contribution) I raise a point on this, because it is relevant to a question that I asked on Second Reading. If the...
Lord Marland | 724 c98GC (Link to this contribution) We will develop this theme as the Bill goes through. Of course, in the first instance, it is the con...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c93GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister—that is most helpful. It has opened up the possibility of a dialogue so that we...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c93GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the indulgence of the Committee yet again, rather than introduce a specific amendm...
Baroness Northover | 724 c93GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for raising that. This relates specifically to a Green Deal plan. I am sure t...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for clarification. It may be in our dialogue outside when we exp...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c94GC (Link to this contribution) 16BA: Clause 14, page 11, line 40, after ““penalty”” insert ““not exceeding £100 in the case of an i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I note that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, also looked on this clause and also saw that there was an i...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I was inspired to table my amendment by the proposal of the Delegated Powers Committee. In paragraph...
Lord Marland | 724 c94-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their suggested amendments to Clause 14 to limit the level of financial pena...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c95GC (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to pre-empt the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, but my amendment, too, was a probing one and ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c95GC (Link to this contribution) 16D: Clause 16, page 13, line 29, leave out paragraph (6)
Lord Whitty | 724 c89GC (Link to this contribution) It would be relatively easy to say what any fee does not cover, which would provide some clarity. I ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) 16A: Clause 6, page 7, line 14, at beginning insert— ““(A1) Before any improvements are installed un...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am partially satisfied. I am pleased to note that the noble Lord says that the regulatio...
Countess of Mar | 724 c92GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords had indicated their intention to oppose a series of clauses and my instruction...
Lord Marland | 724 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this clause enables the framework regulations to require that the energy bill payer consen...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we may be indulgent for a few minutes more. We looked at Clause 9 to see how it fits with Cl...
Baroness Northover | 724 c93GC (Link to this contribution) I am informed that mention is made of this simply for administrative purposes. Your Lordships will n...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but we had a few concerns over some of the clauses. We did not want to draft a specific ...
Lord Marland | 724 c92GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this matter. Perhaps I may take it away and respond to h...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c85GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on a point of order. I do not know if one can do this on this Committee, but we are breaki...
Countess of Mar | 724 c85GC (Link to this contribution) Time is up. I suggest that we resume.
Lord Marland | 724 c85-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 13 to 16 all deal with the financial terms of Green Deal plans. However, before I address...
Countess of Mar | 724 c85GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that. I am afraid that I had to call the noble Lord, Lord Marland, between the two Divi...
Lord Marland | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I totally agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin. There is always an argument for keeping everything...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend give some indication of what level of fee—I made the point about early repayment...
Lord Marland | 724 c83-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lords very much. Just before I respond to the amendments put forward by the noble ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c83GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister will be relieved to hear that I do not have a great deal to add, as he has qu...
Lord Marland | 724 c84-5GC (Link to this contribution) I shall start the sentence again. I will rely on Hansard, as I always do, to dig me out of any holes...
Countess of Mar | 724 c84GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that we should restart, but I should say that there is very likely to be another D...
Lord Whitty | 724 c89GC (Link to this contribution) I will press the Minister for communication with Members of the Committee who have taken an interest...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c89GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will have recognised from the contributions of Members of the Committee the anxiety ...
Lord Whitty | 724 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) It would probably be helpful to us to have that legal advice—or the gist of it—in writing, otherwise...
Lord Marland | 724 c88GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify that question for the noble Lord. Our legal advice is that the protection is i...
Lord Marland | 724 c89GC (Link to this contribution) Given that there has been disruption and that not everyone heard what I said, I am happy to communic...
Lord Moynihan | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) To assist the Minister on this, can he clarify to the Committee that the Government intend for there...
Lord Whitty | 724 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for spelling out some of this, but I am still puzzled by bit...
Lord Marland | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for asking me to explain again. A lot of this will be picked up in ...
Earl Cathcart | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure that my noble friend answered my questions quite as fully as I might have ho...
Lord Marland | 724 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Moynihan for assisting me in this regard. Absolutely—we have t...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c75GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we will come to the question of the energy company obligation later, but at this stage I m...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c74GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my best line has been taken by my noble friend Lord Moynihan, as I was going to accuse the...
Lord Teverson | 724 c77GC (Link to this contribution) Just to clarify, the noble Lord is absolutely right. I have written this amendment so that the local...
Lord Whitty | 724 c75-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support the thrust of these amendments and I am grateful that we are discussing the role of the lo...
Lord Teverson | 724 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment brings two different subjects and two different strands to this debate: the...
Baroness Maddock | 724 c73-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in rising to speak about local authorities and to support my noble friend, I declare an in...
Lord Teverson | 724 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very good question. It is because, as a result of a lack of forethought, I did not think t...
Lord Teverson | 724 c71GC (Link to this contribution) 12: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Local housing authorities (1) Local housing a...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c69-71GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister both for his response and for his good wishes to my noble friend Lady ...
Earl Cathcart | 724 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was wrestling with an amendment—it was going to be a probing amendment—to the effect tha...
Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, may be pleased to hear that when I read through the Bill I put a questi...
Lord Whitty | 724 c80-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 13 and speak to the other amendments in this group. One could argu...
Lord Whitty | 724 c80GC (Link to this contribution) 13: Clause 5, page 6, line 19, at end insert— ““(ia) the structure of repayments over the length of ...
Lord Teverson | 724 c80GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that response. I am delighted to hear that local authorities h...
Baroness Northover | 724 c80GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord will have noted, obviously there are economies of scale when local authorities are...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c79-80GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are continually told that we are not in normal times at the moment. What confidence doe...
Baroness Northover | 724 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments addresses the role of local authorities in relation to the Green ...
Lord Grantchester | 724 c77-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are very encouraged that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is looking more widely than the...
Lord Whitty | 724 c77GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, the role would be somewhat different in different cases, but I think that the new clause would ...
Lord Marland | 724 c65-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, who seems to be indispensable to the Labo...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c68GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could intervene as well at this point. This illustrates the classic difficulty of legislat...
Earl Cathcart | 724 c68GC (Link to this contribution) I asked my noble friend whether the cost of the assessor could be rolled up within the Green Deal lo...
Lord Oxburgh | 724 c67GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether this is the right point to raise this issue, but it certainly has a bearing on...
Lord Marland | 724 c69GC (Link to this contribution) The methodology for the golden rule will be standardised and it is fundamental that it is. That is a...
Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c69GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has not touched on the question of the cost of the finance.
Lord Marland | 724 c68-9GC (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords have made good points about how we should evaluate this. I am sure that many young women...
Lord Oxburgh | 724 c69GC (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that the form of the recommendation to the consumer will not be prescribed and that t...
Lord Marland | 724 c69GC (Link to this contribution) I would rather pick that up later on, when we come to Amendment 15. If the noble Lord does not mind,...
Subjects
Assessments Appeals Cost effectiveness Conservation Building alterations Annual reports Billing Housing Enforcement Energy Local government Powers Ministers Meters Repayments Green deal scheme
Legislation
Energy Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
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