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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 28 February 2007, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
689 c171-238GC 
Session
2006-07
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Countess of Mar | 689 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly support the amendment, which goes right to the heart of what I have been saying for...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c173GC (Link to this contribution) I support that strongly. It reminds me that in tribunal hearings, if an applicant has a friend or bu...
Show all contributions (132)
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) I would support the sentiments behind the noble Lord’s comments. The point that I was trying to make...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) In truth, we have said—or are going to say—that it is important that communication with customers is...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c180GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness talked a good deal about ““healthcare professionals””—a phrase that recurs a good...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c182GC (Link to this contribution) I know, and that is why I am trying to make the description as clear as possible. It is very importa...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) To round off this discussion, I was absolutely delighted to listen to the Minister, who, second time...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) That must be illogical. I accept that there will not be many people in the circumstances that I have...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the many noble Lords who have spoken so eloquently, particularly those who speak from person...
Countess of Mar | 689 c198GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister goes that far, he mentioned identifying the barriers to getting back to work. In...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c172-3GC (Link to this contribution) I hope to start this afternoon by being quite brief. I recognise the noble Lord’s concern for the we...
Lord Addington | 689 c171-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has once again raised an interesting matter. Will this include someone with literacy ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c171GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 32: 32: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) provide for the prese...
Viscount Simon | 689 c171GC (Link to this contribution) If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as t...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) It occurs to me that we are all singing from roughly the same hymn-sheet—which is very healthy. The ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33: 33: Clause 8 , page 6, line 17, at end insert— ““( ) make provision as to ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c177-8GC (Link to this contribution) I fear that I shall repeat much of what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, has just said, as I too h...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c179-80GC (Link to this contribution) At the work-focused interview? Yes, it is the personal adviser plus their intermediary. Just for the...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c182GC (Link to this contribution) So much to say, so many pieces of paper. The definition of a health professional is picked up on pag...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c182-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for pointing out that the definition of a healthcare profes...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, will have plenty of time because Amendment No. 111 in the Marshalled...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to support the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, but of course I take...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c183GC (Link to this contribution) That is an expression that noble Lords may have heard me use before, because all politicians are tem...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I was not shaking my head at the Minister. Yes, of course she may.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) The point about the reassessment of claims before the appeal stage is important. One of the key issu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) Is it sufficient, therefore, for the claimant to take the information with him?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is generous to give me this opportunity. I was about to give an undertaking to look f...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to noble Lords who have contributed to the debate so effectively. Again, it is most he...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c220GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 59: 59: Clause 10 , page 9, line 17, at end insert— ““(9) Relevant information...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 87 in the name of the noble Baron...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can reassure the noble Lord on that. Those are two separate things. No deduction will be due ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) What I was trying to establish was whether the sanction would be applied only to ESA benefit, not to...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) That was extremely helpful. Clearly, in the past, having a rack of leaflets on benefits in the jobce...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c223GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for raising the important question of the scripts in Jobc...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise if I am not being clear. That may be because I am getting slightly tired as the afternoo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c227GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might give the noble Baroness some thinking time. I understand that under the existing reg...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c225-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for giving me the opportunity to respond to these important questions and I hope...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the debate on this whole clause, which gives the Committee a chance to air their worries a...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c228-31GC (Link to this contribution) I oppose the Question whether Clause 12 shall stand part of the Bill. My remarks will apply also to ...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of what we propose in this group of amendments. I...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to do that. I think that the figure I quoted of some 400 regulations in total flowing fro...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) I want to make a few brief points. As I understand it, our main concern—certainly it is mine in supp...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c212GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47: 47: Clause 9, page 7, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) for a person who is be...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c213GC (Link to this contribution) Despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, just said, I understand that the Mental Health Act 19...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 49: 49: Clause 10 , page 8, line 2, at end insert ““and ( ) not in the assessm...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) I accept the Minister’s view that the amendment goes far, far too wide—it was intended to cover not ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Sob stuff. It is one thing for this Minister, for regulation reform, to say that he will keep this u...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) It is very unsettling when the noble Lord keeps going on about Ministers being temporary. I would ho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that. I will certainly look into that matter and write to he...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c200-2GC (Link to this contribution) After listening to the Minister’s response, I think that he must take from the important exchange th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I did not quite say that. I said, using my own phraseology, that the original pilots were rather ske...
Lord Addington | 689 c197GC (Link to this contribution) On the question of best practice, I specifically asked how best practice is being passed on here. Th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister moves on, is this not in part anyway what part two of the pilots is intended to ...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c195GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the Pathways for Work pilots have proved that the procedures work with people...
Baroness Murphy | 689 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I add my voice in support of the amendment, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has expounded...
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood | 689 c191GC (Link to this contribution) From these Benches we support this large group of amendments. I shall speak specifically to Amendmen...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c188-90GC (Link to this contribution) I am so sorry, but I was mindful of the time. As has already been noted, the Welfare Reform Bill env...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution) It is impossible not to understand the strength of feeling on this issue, but I hope that what I hav...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35: 35: Clause 8 , page 6, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) as to the manner in w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c188GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the noble Baroness is speaking so fast that it is quite difficult to hear her.
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. As I said, we are all close to singing from the same hymn-sheet...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c178-9GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that I will be able to clear up some of the questions around the timing of assessments. In ad...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c181GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that, the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has made a very valid point. ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c184GC (Link to this contribution) I give modified support to the amendment because the GP’s letter will be vital. It occurred to me to...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments are concerned with the requirements on third parties to provide the Department for Wo...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c185GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, withdraws her amendment, where in Schedule 3 is the alterati...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c186GC, (corrigendum) 312GC (Link to this contribution) It sounds as if there is a certain amount of confusion. It was interesting that the Minister said th...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) While the Minister is thinking about her reply, I have one quick question. Can the decision be overt...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I can understand that, but my supplementary question, if the Minister remembers it, was whether one ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am advised that we need a separate process for information to go from the GP to the Atos Origin do...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to plug away at this, but does that mean that the first interview will not normally be he...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c234GC (Link to this contribution) Now that we have heard from both halves of the Meacher and Layard double act, I want to put formally...
Countess of Mar | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness can just sit down. Clause 12 agreed to.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Any case where there has been an error or where full information has not been given is to be regrett...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 73: 73: Clause 12 , page 11, line 38, leave out subsection (7) The noble Lord...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c228GC (Link to this contribution) Good. At least, we have got to the bottom of that. Looking at Clause 12 as a whole, the Explanatory...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c228GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, it would have been far better if the noble Baroness had been prepared to say that ther...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to speak to Amendment No. 82. Clause 17 provides full disqualification from benefit on ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c231GC (Link to this contribution) Clause stand part is a catch-all debate. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, that unless ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) When my colleague, Jim Murphy, spoke as a Minister, he spoke for the Government, which is on the rec...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make a suggestion. The department publishes an annual report of its activities in whic...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, does he accept that my response referred specifically...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I gave way and in a sense we have just had an intervention on an intervention. Perhaps I may now con...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches support the amendments. As Leonard Cheshire points out in a very helpful briefin...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c213-5GC (Link to this contribution) Although we cannot accept the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, as it stands, I ca...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I believe that that would be correct. Perhaps I should have said in conclusion to my remarks th...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) Several things occur to me. Bearing in mind my jocular remark earlier that all Ministers are tempora...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c206-8GC (Link to this contribution) Not at all. Many of those regulations are technical and flow, as the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can ask about the precoded answers and the notes that people can use when filling in forms...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c206GC (Link to this contribution) That is a staggering figure—400 regulations. Does that not suggest that not enough work has been don...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is a correct assessment. The existing arrangements are trying to reach bo...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I think that that correctly cites the research, but the IFS said that it is too early to read too mu...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c192-4GC (Link to this contribution) There is so much consensus around the Committee that it is difficult for someone whose amendments ar...
Lord Addington | 689 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I shall briefly add my voice to this. One of the problems with this group of amendments is the incre...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that long reply and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for joinin...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c173GC (Link to this contribution) this is an important amendment and I support it. The problem is that the provisions are currently de...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c174GC (Link to this contribution) It is 70 per cent, compared with 50 per cent. We are talking here about entitlement to benefits, whi...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 689 c180-1GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could ask one or two questions. The Minister is doing extremely well explaining a very dif...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c179GC (Link to this contribution) My memory being such, can I stop the Minister there? Is it only the personal adviser who has been ap...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c185GC, (corrigendum) 312GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies and before I withdraw the amendment, perhaps I may say that I remain unh...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c183-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34: 34: Clause 8 , page 6, line 22, at end insert— ““( ) as to the duties of t...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c185GC (Link to this contribution) We will have a further discussion on this matter later when we debate appeals. The issues that the n...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am advised that we have to be extremely mindful of the possibility of fraud if people bring inform...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c186GC (Link to this contribution) In terms of working with GPs and health professionals generally, ideas are being looked at for impro...
Countess of Mar | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until tomorrow.
Lord Layard | 689 c232-4GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I have been a lifelong supporter of welfare-to-work policies, so I favour t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c234-8GC (Link to this contribution) Although I seek to encourage the Committee to reject the proposition that Clause 12 should not stand...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 689 c238GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until two o’clock tomorrow.
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) Good. We all accept that the WFHR assessment should take place as soon as possible unless there are ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that Amendment No. 59 recognises the potential of the work-focused health-related asses...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c210GC (Link to this contribution) If I thought that Ministers were being consistent, I would not have to plug on, but the whole purpos...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I stress that a large amount of research and review is undertaken over a whole range of policy areas...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c215GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. Her experience...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) There are two separate things—there is entitlement to benefit for whatever length of period, and if ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) The Government’s aim in our welfare reforms is to reduce dependency on benefits by providing custome...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c219GC (Link to this contribution) I emphasise that I do not see the situation as being illogical. The level of benefit will be impacte...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord could confirm that it will not be the customer, as he calls him, who...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c197GC (Link to this contribution) We are committed to writing to the noble Lord about our debate last time about spreading best practi...
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 689 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 38: 38: Clause 8 , page 7, line 6, at end insert— ““(7) The Secretary of State...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with a lot of what the noble Lord said about the importance of engaging with these customers...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Government Amendments Nos. 93, 95, 113, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 109 and 110 ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 689 c203-5GC (Link to this contribution) This is another huge group of amendments, many of which pertain to the Government. I shall speak fir...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 689 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend in calling for an annual report on the operation of the assessment for lim...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c198-200GC (Link to this contribution) If we are talking about people who would be in the support group, there is no requirement to engage ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) On the latter, if we are looking at the provider-led Pathways for the other 60 per cent of the count...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 689 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is strictly correct. We acknowledge that there is concern that those with...
Baroness Meacher | 689 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may push this one stage further. Am I right in believing that the IFS work shows that ther...
Subjects
Disability Disability living allowance Benefits rules Administration Depressive illnesses ME/CFS Fraud Employment Health Health professions Interviews Learning disability Incapacity benefit Medical examinations Mental illness Pilot schemes Unemployed people Employment and support allowance
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2005-06 to 2006-07
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk