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Further Education and Training Bill [Lords]

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

462 c1629-710 

Session

2006-07

Department

Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills

Legislative stage

Third reading

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Related items

Further Education and Training Bill (HL). As amended in Public Bill Committee.
Thursday, 14 June 2007
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Teather | 462 c1629 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Speaker | 462 c1629 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 26, in clause 6, page 6, li...

Show all contributions (146)

John Hayes | 462 c1633 (Link to this contribution) I agree. It is not as though we did not tell the Government—we said that this Bill was not fit for p...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1633 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have observed that the publication accompanying yesterday’s statement contai...

John Hayes | 462 c1633 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, in his typically learned and well-informed way, makes two points. First, he makes th...

Barry Sheerman | 462 c1631 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is very knowledgeable in this area, and I was not privy to the Committee’s discussions...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1631 (Link to this contribution) At the moment, we are simply consulting on what should be done with the money. An internal party wor...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1629-31 (Link to this contribution) New clause 5 and consequential amendments Nos. 26 to 28 are essential probing amendments designed to...

John Hayes | 462 c1632-3 (Link to this contribution) It is good to welcome the Minister back to his job, albeit in a new Department, and I look forward t...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1633 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the last thing that the sector needs is more bodies, or a further pro...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1631-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady raises an entirely proper point. Does she agree that for those of us who have sometime...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1632 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I do not want to criticise the announcement, as we have been callin...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1637 (Link to this contribution) If one looks at the long term trend, it is not accurate to say that the number has grown. Broadly, t...

Jeremy Wright | 462 c1634 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be very much in the interests of the Learning and Skills Council for the Government to ...

John Hayes | 462 c1634 (Link to this contribution) The Government’s approach has a touch of rearranging the deckchairs and changing the sheet music for...

Speaker | 462 c1634 (Link to this contribution) Order. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will now confine himself to the new clause and amendments...

John Hayes | 462 c1634-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall be delighted to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Association of Colleges is concerned about...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1636-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the hon. Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) to her new position and, for the avoidance...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1637 (Link to this contribution) One issue that my hon. Friend has raised, and which I raised on Second Reading, was that of NEETs—th...

John Hayes | 462 c1637 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that letter and for exploring the issue in more detail. Why does he think t...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) If I were standing here now—a week or so after announcing the government machinery changes—setting o...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1637-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises a serious and important point. The new Department takes bullying extraordinari...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1639-40 (Link to this contribution) We will certainly come back and look at the issue, but we must consult on the detail, and we must ma...

John Hayes | 462 c1640 (Link to this contribution) This is an important debate about an important issue in the Bill, and the hon. Member for Brent, Eas...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1639 (Link to this contribution) I cannot, and will not, give the specific commitment that the hon. Lady asks for, as if I were to do...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1639 (Link to this contribution) My understanding, especially from the discussion that members of the Education and Skills Committee ...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1638-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that answer, but may I return to an earlier point I made? Will the Governme...

John Hayes | 462 c1638 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has provoked this intervention. Surely he is not telling the House that fundamental cha...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I am not denying, and I have not denied, that there will be a need for further legislation. However,...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1641 (Link to this contribution) The White Paper proposed that common funding principles for schools and colleges be put in place by ...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1641 (Link to this contribution) It certainly is our intention to have a common set of funding principles for schools and FE. We are ...

Speaker | 462 c1643 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 25, page 12, leave out lin...

John Hayes | 462 c1643-5 (Link to this contribution) Clauses 17 and 18 transfer and extend the power to intervene in FE colleges. Clause 17 transfers suc...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1645 (Link to this contribution) We debated clause 17 extensively in Committee, and subsequently I held some helpful meetings with th...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1645-6 (Link to this contribution) Two of the best colleges in the country are in my constituency, so it is difficult to talk about wha...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1642 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response; he gave a lot of extra detail on the time frame and the Gove...

John Hayes | 462 c1643 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 21, in page 11, line 33, leave out clause 17.

Bill Rammell | 462 c1709-10 (Link to this contribution) Our discussion on Third Reading has been an important one. I should start by paying tribute to the h...

Hywel Francis | 462 c1708-9 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the Bill, which I hope will be of benefit to learners in England and Wales. The Wels...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1708 (Link to this contribution) That is both my anticipation and my profound wish. It ought to be possible for consenting adults to ...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1702-4 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to support the Bill through its final stages. I also commend my hon. Friends on the Fro...

John Hayes | 462 c1700-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good case, but there is a danger in overstating it. I am familiar with the In...

Brooks Newmark | 462 c1700 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the great thing about further education institutions, as opposed to h...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1708 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the early indications are that although funding will be channell...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1707 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) expressed the mood of the whole House, and the support...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1705-6 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Bill, as it will equip learners with the high-quality skills that they need to compete...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1704-5 (Link to this contribution) Rather curiously, a Labour Whip has been going around asking everyone to speak for as long as possib...

John Hayes | 462 c1649 (Link to this contribution) That is dancing on the head of a pin—and it is not even elegant. It is not even a foxtrot; it is som...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1649-50 (Link to this contribution) I can lay claim to many skills, but dancing is not among them. What I said about wanting greater sel...

Jeremy Wright | 462 c1649 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Minister back to the issue of intervention powers? He is right to say that we all wis...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1649 (Link to this contribution) It is right that those powers reside in a body that is close to the interface with colleges and that...

Kelvin Hopkins | 462 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I think that I might be helpful. I have today received a briefing from the AOC saying that the claus...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. I am having to get used to the fact that he is intervening to help me, which...

John Hayes | 462 c1648 (Link to this contribution) I have taken the opportunity to put on the record the fact that the hon. Gentleman has been a listen...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1648-9 (Link to this contribution) I have not discussed these proposals with the AOC since the machinery of government changes. However...

Jeremy Wright | 462 c1646-7 (Link to this contribution) I, too, want to speak briefly in support of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for S...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1647-8 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the constructive debates that we have had on clauses 17 and 18, but I am somewhat disappoi...

John Hayes | 462 c1654-5 (Link to this contribution) There is a good case, made by Labour Members on Second Reading and subsequently, for the Bill to hav...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generosity in letting me intervene again. He said that he had had...

John Hayes | 462 c1655 (Link to this contribution) My office has been in touch with the Conservative Members in the Assembly, and they share some of th...

Mark Williams | 462 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to someone who represents a Welsh constituency. Although I...

John Hayes | 462 c1653 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 23, page 15, line 22, after ‘England’, insert ‘or Wales’. We move to on...

Ian Lucas | 462 c1653 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman assist us with the whereabouts of the shadow Welsh Ministers, as he has moved...

John Hayes | 462 c1653-4 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Welsh Ministers have been in almost constant contact with me on the matter. I have taken ...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1654 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. Gentleman, I was contacted on 26 or 27 June by Fforwm, almost at the end of the legisl...

John Hayes | 462 c1650 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, the Minister is a responsible man. He has listened to the measured case that has bee...

John Hayes | 462 c1657 (Link to this contribution) That confirms what I thought. As I say, I took a keen interest in this once it became clear that it ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 462 c1657-8 (Link to this contribution) I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) sai...

John Hayes | 462 c1656 (Link to this contribution) I made exactly that point in Committee. We have not reached a settled position on how we deal with t...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks whether there are colleges in Wales that would like these award-making power...

John Hayes | 462 c1660 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Ruane | 462 c1660 (Link to this contribution) I will because the hon. Gentleman gave way to me three times.

Baroness Teather | 462 c1658-9 (Link to this contribution) I also raised that point in Committee and I thought it odd that we were neither giving the power to ...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1659-60 (Link to this contribution) There has been a lack of consultation, especially with Welsh Back-Bench Labour Members of Parliament...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1656 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a lesson to be learned from this? He may remember that o...

John Hayes | 462 c1655-6 (Link to this contribution) I have nothing useful to add, except to say that we now have an opportunity, with a new and enthusia...

Nick Ainger | 462 c1662-3 (Link to this contribution) As my former role as a Minister has been referred to by at least two Members in this short debate, I...

John Hayes | 462 c1663 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman spoke in Committee and speaks again today with great integrity, and I take his po...

Nick Ainger | 462 c1663-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is quite right, which is why I am seeking an assurance that the Order in Council ...

Adam Price | 462 c1664-5 (Link to this contribution) There is a wide consensus in the House that the idea of foundation degrees in further education is a...

John Hayes | 462 c1665 (Link to this contribution) Many Members who have contributed to the debate speak about Welsh affairs with more knowledge than I...

Adam Price | 462 c1665 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, as a Plaid Cymru Member, I take a maximalist position in relation to conferring powers on...

John Hayes | 462 c1660 (Link to this contribution) As a council house boy and the first in my family to go to university, I appreciate many of the hon....

Ian Lucas | 462 c1661-2 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support much of what my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) sai...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1660-1 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is a chance of that, but I hope that the messages that my...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1695-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. This is a small, relatively uncontroversia...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1694-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall quickly respond to some of the comments made, so as to allow my right hon. Friend the Member...

Hywel Williams | 462 c1694 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Plaid Cymru Members support clause 27. It is a substantial chan...

Angela Watkinson | 462 c1700 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that many people are unable to study away from home for various reasons, i...

John Hayes | 462 c1698-700 (Link to this contribution) I would make two points in response to my hon. Friend’s typically incisive intervention. First, his ...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1698 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the unmerited personal tribute that he just paid me. Before it f...

John Hayes | 462 c1696-8 (Link to this contribution) Like the Minister, I am pleased that we are coming to the end of our journey. It has been a long jou...

Speaker | 462 c1694 (Link to this contribution) Order. I want to try to fit in a ministerial reply and one other speaker. I call Mr. Hywel Williams....

John Hayes | 462 c1700 (Link to this contribution) With her usual care and insight, my hon. Friend has anticipated some of my comments. She is right th...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1687 (Link to this contribution) It was remiss of me not to welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new post. I apologise for that. I have...

Adam Afriyie | 462 c1686-7 (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that during the Bill’s passage the Minister and other members of the Government ha...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1690 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 8, page 21, line 33, leave out clause 27.

Adam Afriyie | 462 c1687 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for making her position clear, if not entirely acceptable to the Conservative ...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1690-2 (Link to this contribution) During Second Reading on 21 May, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) and I rais...

Speaker | 462 c1690 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 9, page 24, line 13, clause 32, leave out s...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 462 c1693 (Link to this contribution) I fully support the amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig). When the G...

Roger Williams | 462 c1693-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) is right to emphasise that there will be more than one...

Hywel Francis | 462 c1694 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I will seek to provide clarification on that point later. However, I can now offer further clarific...

Hywel Francis | 462 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for drawing attention to the role of the Welsh Affairs Com...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1668-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct. We should not assume that the matter under discussion would preclude an O...

John Hayes | 462 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the hon. Gentleman is new to his post, but he is not answering the question that w...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1669 (Link to this contribution) I will give way one more time, and then I will try to make some progress in dealing with the many po...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1670 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is being extremely generous in giving way. I cannot quite get my head around this. Is...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1665-6 (Link to this contribution) As I rise to address the House for the first time outside Wales questions, I recall a slogan used by...

John Hayes | 462 c1666-7 (Link to this contribution) There is no overall clamour from colleges in England either. No one expects there to be a plethora o...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1667 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might find that he is not correct in terms of HE and FE sectors in Wales because ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 462 c1667 (Link to this contribution) No one would disagree with anything that my hon. Friend is saying; the co-operation between higher a...

John Hayes | 462 c1668 (Link to this contribution) In the light of the hon. Gentleman’s most recent remarks, will he deal with the point made by the ri...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1667-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope to be able to assuage some of my right hon. Friend’s concerns as I respond to a detailed deba...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 462 c1668 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is now saying that, in terms of the matters under discussion, the Privy Councillor fo...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1668 (Link to this contribution) I ask my right hon. Friend to give me some latitude by allowing me to return to that query later. I ...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1685 (Link to this contribution) I shall address that in respect of the quality assurance intervention powers that are in place, whic...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1685-6 (Link to this contribution) I understand the Minister’s point about the duty and contractual arrangements. I can see that that m...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1683-5 (Link to this contribution) There are two responses to that. First, we genuinely want as much innovation and flexibility as poss...

Adam Afriyie | 462 c1685 (Link to this contribution) I am listening closely to the Minister’s points. Does he accept, however, that there is a fundamenta...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1682-3 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) to the Front Bench and congratulate him on the ...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1683 (Link to this contribution) I still do not really understand the Minister’s point about the degrees being second class, particul...

Jeremy Wright | 462 c1682 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell), with whom I substan...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1686 (Link to this contribution) When it comes to contractual relations—what exactly they are, and with whom—I think the Minister and...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1672 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I have clarified all those issues, including the use of Orders in Council, but I would b...

John Hayes | 462 c1672 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he has clarified the issues. He was asked by one of his hon. Friends—no...

Adam Afriyie | 462 c1675-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 24, page 15, line 37, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page ...

Speaker | 462 c1676 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 6, page 16, leave out line...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1670-1 (Link to this contribution) Yes, an Order in Council would indeed be necessary. Section 76 of the Further and Higher Education A...

John Hayes | 462 c1671 (Link to this contribution) I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you, like me, have travelled to a destination that you have not ...

Baroness Teather | 462 c1678-9 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 24, 6 and 7 deal with two things we discussed extensively during Committee: progress...

Adam Afriyie | 462 c1676-8 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to address the House from the Front Bench for the first time. Having come to the Front ...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1680-2 (Link to this contribution) I begin by commending my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on his maiden appearance ...

Roberta Blackman-Woods | 462 c1679-80 (Link to this contribution) I tabled amendments Nos. 6 and 7 to obtain clarification of two specific matters. I appreciate that ...

Chris Ruane | 462 c1637 (Link to this contribution) Yesterday, I took four young women aged 16 and 17 who were NEETs around the House of Commons and spo...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1637 (Link to this contribution) I respect my hon. Friend’s intentions; he has worked on this matter for a long time. It is not fair ...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1669 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point, particularly regarding the progressive consensus. Yes, I can...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1686 (Link to this contribution) There is, but if the hon. Gentleman looks at the history of the development of higher education he w...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1686 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the guidance is already satisfactory, but I will look at it again and ensure that the...

John Hayes | 462 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) What I said was that I was told by an authoritative third party that the original version of the res...

Bill Rammell | 462 c1642 (Link to this contribution) I can and will give the commitment that our response will be published very shortly, and there will ...

Lord Touhig | 462 c1695 (Link to this contribution) I listened to my hon. Friend’s points, and it is important that we find a mechanism for better scrut...

Nick Ainger | 462 c1668 (Link to this contribution) I understand the Minister’s point about the Privy Council, but what about the process? If, following...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 462 c1668 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s question. I have tried to clarify several points about the Privy C...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 462 c1692-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to speak in support of the amendment moved by the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. T...

Subjects

Devolution Apprentices Finance Further education Learning and Skills Council for England Qualifications Privy Council Schools Training Young people Wales Sixth form education Foundation degrees

Legislation

Further Education and Training Bill (HL) 2006-07

Contains statistics

Yes

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk