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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 7 September 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Maude of Horsham. The answering member was Baroness Jowell.

Superannuation Bill

Superannuation Bill. Second reading debate. Amendment negatived on division (240 to 329). Main question agreed on division (326 to 244). Programme motion agreed on division (307 to 244).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
515 c209-93 
Session
2010-12
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Reasoned amendments
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Michael Connarty | 515 c249 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is, as usual, shy about telling people that she is a former Minister in the Scottish ...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c242-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman misunderstood me. The Government have made it clear that they want a negotiated s...
Show all contributions (178)
Jack Dromey | 515 c244-6 (Link to this contribution) May I declare an interest? For 15 years I was chairman of the Ministry of Defence joint industrial W...
Harriett Baldwin | 515 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I have obviously been in completely the wrong line ...
Thomas Docherty | 515 c247 (Link to this contribution) I can think of many privatised companies, as I am sure many colleagues can—I am thinking of British ...
Claire O'Neill | 515 c256 (Link to this contribution) I would like to focus on the average rather than the outliers, as that seems to elicit cries of outr...
Gavin Williamson | 515 c252-3 (Link to this contribution) Given that, in this Chamber, we often talk about cuts, you will be pleased to hear, Madam Deputy Spe...
Michael Connarty | 515 c255 (Link to this contribution) I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman is still quoting the figure of £100,000 when one of his hon. Fri...
Matt Hancock | 515 c255-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman answers his own question when he says that the previous Government did nothing ab...
Matt Hancock | 515 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention. In some cases, it seems, one can talk about parity...
Michael McCann | 515 c238 (Link to this contribution) One of my final points is that the February deal should be put back on the table. That is the simple...
Gavin Williamson | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) With hindsight, does the hon. Gentleman think that the PCS should have accepted the offer in Februar...
Michael McCann | 515 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I shall defer to my hon. Friend's greater knowledge of these matters and get back to the point that ...
Gregg McClymont | 515 c239 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the Government's figure was from 2009, with no other years being considered...
Michael McCann | 515 c239 (Link to this contribution) The simple fact of the matter is that I can pluck any statistic out of the air that will disprove th...
Nick de Bois | 515 c239 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) highlighted the fact that there is litt...
Michael McCann | 515 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) The numbers are okay. Forgive me; I was not trying to suggest that we introduced new legislation in ...
John McDonnell | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) Just to be accurate for the record, it was one of the highest ballot turnouts that any union has had...
Michael McCann | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) I always tend to go with the majority; that is the democratic thing to do. When five out of six trad...
Speaker | 515 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow said several times that we are a...
Sajid Javid | 515 c231 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me again. The latest report by the Office for National ...
John McDonnell | 515 c231 (Link to this contribution) I shall refer the hon. Gentleman to the figures, so we can base the debate on them. I repeat: averag...
John McDonnell | 515 c232 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not listening. The period of six years has been used time and again t...
John Pugh | 515 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall be fairly brief, as I have only one fundamental concern. Despite the persuasive skills of th...
Matt Hancock | 515 c237 (Link to this contribution) The surprise that I express is due to the argument that, because not many people will receive enormo...
Michael McCann | 515 c237 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is absolutely correct, but earlier contributors made it clear that that refers to a ve...
Michael McCann | 515 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, but may I make this point in return? If the February deal w...
Richard Graham | 515 c237 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his comments are focused on the Bill, rather than on the parallel...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c223 (Link to this contribution) Well, let us see how that commitment plays out in practice. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gen...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c224 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman feels it necessary to ask that question. If employers in the ...
Alun Cairns | 515 c227 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that that would be part of the negotiations, but I wholly accept the point that my r...
Jonathan Edwards | 515 c227 (Link to this contribution) Considering that there are ongoing negotiations, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the Governme...
Richard Graham | 515 c224 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Sajid Javid | 515 c228 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will know that the budget deficit that this Government inherited from the previou...
John McDonnell | 515 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman came to the House at the last election, so he may not know that I was probably no...
John McDonnell | 515 c230 (Link to this contribution) Would it not have been useful, though, if we actually had the number so that we could have a properl...
John Hemming | 515 c229 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to protect the low paid is to protect them from redu...
John McDonnell | 515 c229 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that a range of negotiations need to take place. In the last set of negotiations with th...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c220 (Link to this contribution) And let me make it absolutely clear that the Minister has grossly misrepresented the words of the fo...
John Hemming | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady often uses the word ““unfair””. I assume that she employs her own staff in her p...
Richard Graham | 515 c220 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Lady knows, a number of Members on this side of the House, as former civil servant...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c221 (Link to this contribution) There is all the difference in the world between a settlement that recognises reasonably the proper ...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c221 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make a bit of progress. In the current environment in which many civil servants are u...
John Hemming | 515 c221 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Baroness Jowell | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks a fair question, but it is his responsibility to test that. However, because...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point based on extensive discussions in her constituency with civi...
Alison McGovern | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the fear, which I have come across in my constituency, about th...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c223 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it absolutely clear that the point I was making is that, under the current scheme, lower...
David Hamilton | 515 c223 (Link to this contribution) Did the Minister not give it away when he made the point in his opening remarks that it is more expe...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c218 (Link to this contribution) Well, that is one of the issues that is being negotiated. It can be defined in all sorts of differen...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c219 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from ““That”” to the end of the Question and add:"““this Ho...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c219 (Link to this contribution) That is also misguided, and we can have a further debate about it. In fact, it is public servants w...
Paul Goggins | 515 c275 (Link to this contribution) I will take one more intervention, but the Minister wants to wind up and we have to reflect the deba...
Paul Goggins | 515 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) The reasons it was declared illegal relate to the standing of the original legislation—the Superannu...
Martin Horwood | 515 c275 (Link to this contribution) Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that the starting point for this process should be ...
John McDonnell | 515 c279 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to embark on any party-political knockabout during the last few minutes of the debat...
Nick Hurd | 515 c276-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been a serious debate. It has been very sober in tone, and that is entirely right because w...
Matt Hancock | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) Whatever the result of the vote on the amendment, the Minister is right to say that the tone of the ...
Nick Hurd | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) I understand the argument. It is based on the fact that this is about money and public expenditure, ...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to correct the Opposition on one other point, which is tha...
Nick Hurd | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point about the lack of coherence in the Opposition's position. Th...
Paul Goggins | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) It is important to be clear about this. The ruling was not about the content of what was proposed by...
Nick Hurd | 515 c281 (Link to this contribution) And our intention is to negotiate an agreement. This Bill is not the endgame. It is an interim measu...
Nick Hurd | 515 c280 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point and he states a fact that I have placed on the record b...
Cathy Jamieson | 515 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my hon. Friend's complimentary remarks. In fact, I am a former Justice Minister. F...
Richard Graham | 515 c248 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree in retrospect that it was a tragedy that two years ago the PCS did not agre...
Cathy Jamieson | 515 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) We heard today that the people whom the Public and Commercial Services Union represents—the majority...
Cathy Jamieson | 515 c248 (Link to this contribution) Like other hon. Members who have spoken in the debate, I have been contacted by a number of my const...
Harriett Baldwin | 515 c246 (Link to this contribution) I wish to add to the comments of Members on both sides of the House my recognition of the work that ...
Matt Hancock | 515 c256 (Link to this contribution) It is always dangerous to give way to my hon. Friend, because she usually puts the point far more lu...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c256 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure what point the hon. Gentleman is trying to make. If the question is whether I ag...
Viscount Thurso | 515 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will know that I wrote to the Minister for the Cabinet Office on 21 July to set out the...
Gregg McClymont | 515 c251-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that there is agreement on both sides of the House that the scheme needs to be reformed on g...
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick | 515 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) Like other hon. Members, I have received representations from constituents, many of whom are civil s...
Jeremy Lefroy | 515 c266-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief, as I have been instructed and as I wish to be. The Bill aims to do something that ...
Caroline Lucas | 515 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) I too shall be brief, because I know that time is short, and one way in which I can be brief is by a...
David Ward | 515 c262-4 (Link to this contribution) We have heard many speeches about unfairness and the lack of comparability between the schemes in th...
Chris Williamson | 515 c264-6 (Link to this contribution) This is a mean-spirited, parsimonious Bill that borders on abuse of parliamentary procedures. We hea...
Martin Horwood | 515 c259-61 (Link to this contribution) I declare a strong constituency interest in the Bill. Like many other Members, I have my fair share ...
Lindsay Roy | 515 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to make a short contribution to this vital debate on...
Richard Graham | 515 c258 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady accept that those of us on the Government Benches who have worked in the public s...
Sheila Gilmore | 515 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) Members on those Benches may find it disappointing to hear, but it is what many of my constituents w...
Sheila Gilmore | 515 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding the warm, or perhaps lukewarm, words from the Minister about our civil servants, I s...
Paul Goggins | 515 c275 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not. Our starting point is, and the Government's starting point should be, the February 2...
John Hemming | 515 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I am suggesting that the Government could try to ensure that there are not two redundancies in the s...
Baroness Clark of Kilwinning | 515 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to make the last Back-Bench contribut...
Paul Goggins | 515 c273-5 (Link to this contribution) We have had a good and thorough debate, with some thoughtful and powerful contributions from Members...
Alan Reid | 515 c275 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but surely the Labour party believes i...
Chris Williamson | 515 c269 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is arguing that we should indulge in a race to the bottom—it is about the lowest ...
John Hemming | 515 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) I do not think we should indulge in a race to the bottom. It needs to be recognised that this is the...
Mary Glindon | 515 c270 (Link to this contribution) As a former PCS worker and someone who until April this year was earning £15,300—I worked in the Chi...
Speaker | 515 c270 (Link to this contribution) Order. Address the Chair, and briefly, please.
John Hemming | 515 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) I am 50 years old and have employed people for about half my life. My company was quite lucky relati...
Michael McCann | 515 c238 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady should forgive my accent; she probably did not catch it, but I said 20 years' service....
Baroness Coffey | 515 c238 (Link to this contribution) I respect the hon. Gentleman's argument, but on a point of clarity, I should say that he talked abou...
Michael McCann | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct that 70% of those covered by the negotiations were PCS members, but we sho...
Michael McCann | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, I do not think that people should worry about numbers—we need to go to th...
Michael Connarty | 515 c242 (Link to this contribution) This is obviously a very brief Bill, and the hon. Gentleman will have read it; I have read it also. ...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c242 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that comment, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will truncate my remarks as best I can. Per...
Kwasi Kwarteng | 515 c230 (Link to this contribution) I am unclear about the hon. Gentleman's position on the status quo. Does he believe that the system ...
John McDonnell | 515 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) I believe that people who are made redundant should be properly compensated and, yes, I believe that...
Sajid Javid | 515 c231 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might want to pick up the report from the House of Commons Library which contains...
John McDonnell | 515 c231-2 (Link to this contribution) I will not quote the figures again, but I refer the hon. Gentleman to the income data survey. I am h...
Andrew Bridgen | 515 c232 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman believe that it is fair or affordable in the current economic situation for ...
John McDonnell | 515 c232-4 (Link to this contribution) I will press on, and give way to the hon. Gentleman shortly. The position now is the worst of all w...
Speaker | 515 c234 (Link to this contribution) Order. A considerable number of Members are trying to catch my eye, as the House can see. If speeche...
Harriett Baldwin | 515 c237 (Link to this contribution) I want to clarify the hon. Gentleman's point about severance, because the Library research paper sta...
Michael McCann | 515 c235-7 (Link to this contribution) May I declare an interest? In the Chamber tonight, I am representing thousands of civil servants who...
Richard Graham | 515 c238 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman support the concept of making the proposal to the trade unions more attracti...
Michael McCann | 515 c237 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for that intervention, but he is simply wrong. A minute number ...
Matt Hancock | 515 c224 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady made the comparison between civil service and other public sector redundancy pac...
Mark Durkan | 515 c227 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member will recall that, when the Minister was asked to say at what level he thought people...
Nick de Bois | 515 c224 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Alun Cairns | 515 c225-6 (Link to this contribution) Like every Member of this House, I have received significant communications and representations from...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make some progress so that Back-Bench Members can get in. We expect the Governmen...
Alun Cairns | 515 c227 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the question, but I think the Government have been left in a...
John McDonnell | 515 c227-8 (Link to this contribution) I chair the PCS parliamentary group. It is a cross-party group that was formed a number of years ago...
Martin Horwood | 515 c230 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could be of assistance to the hon. Gentleman. One of my constituents, a civil servant, cal...
John McDonnell | 515 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and that is why I have consistently put forward alternative economic policies and strategies. ...
John Hemming | 515 c229 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman appears to be arguing, relatively coherently, for no change whatever to the terms...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c220 (Link to this contribution) I intend to test the Minister's commitment to fairness—with respect, I think that he asked more ques...
Martin Horwood | 515 c220 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady keeps presenting the last Government as the Government who pursued a path of neg...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c221 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in what the right hon. Lady is saying, but I think it is incumbent on her to explain...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) For the very simple reason that, in order to meet the terms of the judicial review, the proposals in...
John Hemming | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Richard Graham | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Baroness Jowell | 515 c222 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make progress because many Members wish to speak in the debate. We argue that no ...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c223 (Link to this contribution) I think that those at the higher earnings end and those at the lower earnings end are equally entitl...
Baroness Jowell | 515 c222-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make some progress—and I think that the hon. Gentleman has already made an interve...
Mark Durkan | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has stressed that five unions—not the PCS—had agreed to the arrangements in February. H...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) Just to be clear, we are seeking to negotiate a new scheme, which would effectively make the terms i...
Annette Brooke | 515 c216 (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister please explain the rationale for proposing these particular terms, which are so m...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that those terms were ““almost agreed””, but that was far from being the case. I...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to these exchanges closely, but will the Minister tell me whether I have under...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) That is completely right. My hon. Friend puts his finger precisely on the point. Our view is that on...
Michael McCann | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lindsay Roy | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain the rationale behind giving preferential treatment to those who seek volunt...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) Almost by definition, if a compulsory scheme offered less work and better terms, no one would take u...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c218-9 (Link to this contribution) I really have to make some progress and draw to a conclusion because Members of all parties wish to ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) I will, but then I will have to make some progress.
Michael McCann | 515 c217 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. Will the Minister confirm that if the negotiations with the civil service unions fail...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c218 (Link to this contribution) If this Bill progresses through the House, achieves Royal Assent and goes on to the statute book, it...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 515 c218 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is generous in giving way. On numerous occasions, he has mentioned the issue of lower-p...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c220 (Link to this contribution) Let me make it absolutely clear that we do not blame public servants at all for the disgraceful budg...
John Hemming | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) Obviously we do not want to make civil servants redundant. Does the Bill not make it less likely tha...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) It is not my intention to propose amendments of that nature, because in our view such arrangements a...
Tom Greatrex | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to hear the Minister talking about parallel negotiations with the unions. Will he ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is exactly right and puts his finger on an important point. Because it is so dispropo...
Alan Reid | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) I, too, was pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government want a scheme that will be better f...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c213 (Link to this contribution) I can reassure my hon. Friend that that is exactly our aim. It is one of the great myths—I have some...
David Hamilton | 515 c213 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that many of the low-paid workers have accepted those low wages because of the co...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c213 (Link to this contribution) Negotiations were carried out by the previous Government over the 18 months before the order was lai...
Richard Graham | 515 c213 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend knows, I am a former civil servant. I am very conscious of the large numbers...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c213 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and the fact is that in any employment the terms that apply are...
Stewart Hosie | 515 c214 (Link to this contribution) I was pleased when, a few moments ago, the Minister suggested that he did not want to impose this ch...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c214 (Link to this contribution) All I can say is that it would be rash to make predictions. I can express the hope and aspiration th...
Michael McCann | 515 c214 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said several times that he aims to protect the lower-paid, but I do not follow his ...
Speaker | 515 c214 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the Minister replies, may I point out that interventions should be short, with quick q...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c214 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the hon. Gentleman is, as I have said several times already, that this Bill is not the...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) I am besieged by suitors, but I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Willia...
Mark Williams | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I respect the sincerity with which he puts his case, a...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) I am reluctant to start conducting those negotiations in public. It would be regarded by the unions,...
John Hemming | 515 c215 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that the difficulty is that the Government need to act and cannot allow one ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) No. The effect of the legislation will be identical on all civil servants. Under the Bill, the cap w...
Lord McCabe | 515 c212 (Link to this contribution) Let me say that I want to assume that the Minister's long-term intentions are exactly as he says, bu...
John Pugh | 515 c211 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has mentioned that the scheme was last revised in 1972, but did not that revision leave...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c211 (Link to this contribution) I will come on to precisely that point, because the hon. Gentleman puts his finger on a real concern...
Lord McCabe | 515 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) Whatever the rights and wrongs of seeking judicial review, I am sure the Minister will accept that P...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c209-10 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. In a statement to the House on 6 July, I ma...
Speaker | 515 c209 (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the reasoned amendment in the name of the ri...
Matt Hancock | 515 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate under your speakership, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall...
John McDonnell | 515 c241 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of accuracy on the record, I should point out that the vast majority of members affecte...
Bernard Jenkin | 515 c242 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to give way because we are very short of time, but I will do so briefly.
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c215-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I will say more about the relationship between the negotiations and the Bill in a little whi...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 515 c211-2 (Link to this contribution) The extent to which rights are accrued is an issue to consider. We are talking not strictly about re...
Subjects
Compensation Civil servants Civil service Redundancy pay Redundancy Low pay Trade unions Public and Commercial Services Union Sunset clauses
Legislation
Superannuation Bill 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk