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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 22 March 2011, in the House of Commons, led by Chris Leslie. The answering member was Justine Greening.

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [Lords]

Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL). Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee. Amendments to Clause 1 - Charter for Budget Responsibility and Clause 2 - Annual Budget documents debated and withdrawn. Queen's consent signified. Third reading debate. Agreed on question and Bill passed, with an amendment. [Relevant document: The Fourth Report from the Treasury Committee, Office for Budget Responsibility, HC 385, and the Government's response, Cm 7962.]

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
525 c878-923 
Session
2010-12
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Third reading
Report stage
Procedure
Queen's consent
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) Order. We seem to be skiing off-piste every time there is an intervention and trying to tempt Mr Dav...
Chris Ruane | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) No. The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is listening too slowly.
Show all contributions (140)
Speaker | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) Order. I will tell Members what I am concerned about: no one is talking to the specific amendments b...
Chris Evans | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker—I have not been here very long. Getting back to the am...
Chris Evans | 525 c907 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree. If I may digress a little from the amendment, it is all very well paying off the de...
Geraint Davies | 525 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is wearing a badge saying that he has a GCSE in economics, but I d...
Chris Evans | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) After the epic speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Bassetlaw (John Mann), for Swansea West...
Marcus Jones | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman think that people such as me who are parents of young children do not worry ...
Justine Greening | 525 c908 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware through his role as a member of the Treasury Committee that when th...
Lord Mann | 525 c908 (Link to this contribution) From what the Minister is saying, I presume that if the OBR—or even the Treasury Committee, but the ...
Justine Greening | 525 c907-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope I can provide some clarification. The OBR has the freedom to consider the impact of policies ...
Speaker | 525 c912 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 6, in clause 8, page 3, line 29, at end insert ...
Chris Leslie | 525 c911 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her generosity in at least admitting that our debate and amendment...
Chris Leslie | 525 c915 (Link to this contribution) I am getting used to the hon. Lady's resistance to our amendments. One day we will persuade her to a...
Kerry McCarthy | 525 c917-20 (Link to this contribution) The Opposition support the Bill. It has been debated at length in the other place and in this House ...
Kerry McCarthy | 525 c920 (Link to this contribution) No, I am just drawing to a close. I urge the Minister to ensure that the principles of objectivity,...
Mark Tami | 525 c920 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recall that at the time, the Liberal Democrats were attacking the Government...
Ian Murray | 525 c885 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend explain to the House, and particularly to us new Members, whether the OBR has re...
Chris Leslie | 525 c884 (Link to this contribution) We debated that point in the Public Bill Committee. Having consulted the Treasury Committee Chair su...
Chris Leslie | 525 c885 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will make a little progress, because I want to ensure that ot...
Chris Leslie | 525 c884 (Link to this contribution) I look forward very much to those pre-appointment hearings and the reports of them. It is important ...
Chris Leslie | 525 c886-7 (Link to this contribution) If the OBR is to do an adequate and holistic job in commenting on economic prospects, it surely need...
Chris Leslie | 525 c887 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It would be such a pity if this edifice—the OBR—did not scrutini...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c885 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the hon. Gentleman back to the amendment for a second? I am sure he is not suggesting th...
William Cash | 525 c886 (Link to this contribution) May we park that matter for now, without in any way undermining the hon. Gentleman's main point abou...
Chris Leslie | 525 c886 (Link to this contribution) I am quite sure that there are influences, but we tabled the amendment to draw out answers to some o...
Chris Leslie | 525 c881 (Link to this contribution) Of course, those issues are in the hands of the Chancellor. He has a Budget tomorrow, and I do not k...
Lord Mann | 525 c881 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on the point about flexibility. Where does he think the 2% inf...
Chris Leslie | 525 c884 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. The Government have given the concession to the Treasury Committee that it...
Chris Leslie | 525 c882 (Link to this contribution) I would recommend that all hon. Members take a look at the draft charter for budget responsibility, ...
Chris Leslie | 525 c883 (Link to this contribution) I would not want the hon. Gentleman to misunderstand the point of our amendment. It would, in essenc...
William Cash | 525 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman also has in mind clause 6(3), which imposes the following obligati...
Geraint Davies | 525 c902 (Link to this contribution) I will try and speak more slowly. My point was that the international financial crisis affected all ...
Justine Greening | 525 c901 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5(1) states:"““The Office has complete discretion in the performance of its duty under sectio...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c902 (Link to this contribution) If I may take the hon. Gentleman back, he mentioned Greece and banking regulation. Can he explain to...
Geraint Davies | 525 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) Having complete discretion is useful, but the word discretion means that something remains a matter ...
Geraint Davies | 525 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker, and for the Minister's intervention. In a way, her...
Justine Greening | 525 c903 (Link to this contribution) Just on the off-chance, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would be able to set out what the £14 bi...
Speaker | 525 c903 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are going much wider than the amendments. Could we please confine our comments from now on...
Speaker | 525 c902 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is a fascinating debate, but not for today. If we could get back to the specifics of the...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to understand the amendment. To have a growth mandate in the OBR would have allowed it t...
Geraint Davies | 525 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) No, in Welsh. I was in Dusseldorf, talking on behalf of the Welsh Affairs Committee. This is relevan...
Geraint Davies | 525 c903 (Link to this contribution) The point I was making before I was distracted was why there should be growth in the OBR. What were ...
Ian Murray | 525 c895 (Link to this contribution) One would have thought that the three interventions I have taken were scripted across the Chamber, b...
Lord Mann | 525 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak solely to the excellent amendment that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (...
Lord Mann | 525 c898-9 (Link to this contribution) We, like other countries in the western world, are losing manufacturing jobs because of our refusal ...
Lord Mann | 525 c900 (Link to this contribution) I will have to resist—not because I am not keen to respond, but because I see immediately that Mr De...
Kelvin Hopkins | 525 c887-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to focus on the importance of flexibility and the ability to deal with the p...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c889 (Link to this contribution) We have indeed seen unemployment statistics, which show unemployment in Scotland falling for three m...
Justine Greening | 525 c887 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to the hon. Gentleman for a while, but I want to draw his attention to the OBR...
Chris Leslie | 525 c887 (Link to this contribution) Quite the contrary, Mr Deputy Speaker. Perhaps that was published in the free phase when the OBR, un...
William Cash | 525 c891-2 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad to be able to follow that advice. In order for the provisions contained in the amendm...
Ian Murray | 525 c892 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). At the end of his contribution he re...
William Cash | 525 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) Some time before the general election, as the financial crisis was developing—particularly in relati...
Speaker | 525 c891 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman knows what I am going to say. I do not want to spoil what he is going to s...
Stephen Williams | 525 c893 (Link to this contribution) If the OBR is such a good idea, why did the previous Government not introduce it during their 13 yea...
Mark Field | 525 c879 (Link to this contribution) The course of events that the hon. Gentleman describes is surely a tribute to the independence of th...
Chris Leslie | 525 c880 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. That was one reason why we raised this issue in Committee. The Bill sets out tests on ...
William Cash | 525 c880 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to correct so much as to advise the hon. Gentleman that my position is exactly the opp...
Chris Leslie | 525 c880 (Link to this contribution) I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. I hope that he would acknowledge that we have ...
Geraint Davies | 525 c904-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I would not want to be tempted in the le...
Stephen Williams | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) Given that the hon. Gentleman wants growth-led manufacturing and university clusters, does he welcom...
Andrew Bridgen | 525 c905 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Geraint Davies | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) There was never any suggestion that the OBR could miraculously conjure up the optimum strategy, whic...
Chris Evans | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) If I was in the hon. Gentleman's position, I would be more worried about whether I will have a job i...
Geraint Davies | 525 c906 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) mentioned his children. Surely the important point about gro...
Andrew Bridgen | 525 c905 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the OBR, had it existed before the financial crisis, would have...
Geraint Davies | 525 c907 (Link to this contribution) Having said that, will the hon. Lady accept that some of the OBR's responsibility should be to forec...
Justine Greening | 525 c911 (Link to this contribution) I do remember the motion to which my hon. Friend refers. We were trying to be very clear, as he will...
William Cash | 525 c910 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to put my hon. Friend on the spot, but I am troubled by a motion that the Government t...
Geraint Davies | 525 c909-10 (Link to this contribution) In conversation with the Institute for Fiscal Studies, I asked various questions about growth and it...
Justine Greening | 525 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) I can go back to the reply I just gave the hon. Gentleman. The charter and the Bill clearly set out ...
Chris Leslie | 525 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) It is early, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I understand your point about the ticking clock. Amendment 2 se...
Justine Greening | 525 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) On amendment 2, the Government are committed to increasing transparency in public life. That transpa...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 calls for the OBR's reports to be published. The Treasury Committee said:"““The OBR shou...
Chris Leslie | 525 c911 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 2, page 2, line 14, at end add—
Stephen Williams | 525 c920 (Link to this contribution) This is a short but very important Bill which I hope will change the conduct of economic debates. Of...
Lord Tyrie | 525 c921-3 (Link to this contribution) The Chancellor took a major step by handing responsibility for fiscal forecasting to an independent ...
Stephen Williams | 525 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) I recall very well that from 2001 onwards I and my colleagues, whether candidates or Members of Parl...
Chris Leslie | 525 c885 (Link to this contribution) Possibly, but in a more tragic and important way that affects real lives and real people. It does no...
Chris Leslie | 525 c885 (Link to this contribution) It is a one-way journey, unfortunately. The OBR started with high expectations of growth soon after ...
Lord Mann | 525 c884 (Link to this contribution) As a member of the Treasury Committee, I wholeheartedly back the principle that all five members sho...
Chris Leslie | 525 c885-6 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the Economic Secretary will make that point in her retort, when she eloquently resist...
Chris Leslie | 525 c886 (Link to this contribution) The growth mandate that we are suggesting would be a responsibility of the Treasury, not of the OBR,...
Lord Mann | 525 c886 (Link to this contribution) One statistic that is not currently provided by the OBR is its projection of the number of new emplo...
Chris Leslie | 525 c881 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend suggests that the measure is phantom paraphernalia, enrobing the creation of the Offi...
Lord Mann | 525 c881 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for generously giving way a second time. The reason for exploring the issue i...
Chris Leslie | 525 c881 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely correct, and I am glad that the Bank of England is being flexible, but ab...
Kelvin Hopkins | 525 c880-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) draws a useful parallel with monetar...
Chris Leslie | 525 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. As I understand it, however, the Government, i...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c883 (Link to this contribution) I understand why the hon. Gentleman wants this provision, but I am not unsupportive. I am worried th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 525 c884 (Link to this contribution) In line with that, would it not be sensible to ensure that the members of the OBR, when they are app...
Chris Leslie | 525 c882 (Link to this contribution) It has been dropped, and that is indeed something which we should come back to at another point. Th...
Justine Greening | 525 c902 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman keeps talking about the deficit as though it was something that descended upon us...
Geraint Davies | 525 c904 (Link to this contribution) I really am speaking too fast, aren't I?
Ian Murray | 525 c893-4 (Link to this contribution) That may not please every Labour Member, but nobody is objecting to the setting up of the OBR. My po...
Andrew Bridgen | 525 c894 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that the OBR is in place. Does the hon. Gentleman think that if it had been forme...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c895 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately that is not quite true, because the bulk of the capital expenditure took place through...
Ian Murray | 525 c895 (Link to this contribution) The figures are there for people to see. I am delighted that we have had a contribution from the hon...
Speaker | 525 c895 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are not going to be drawn into the party politics of Scotland. Let us stick to the amendme...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point about the nature of employment, but I am not sure whet...
Ian Murray | 525 c895-6 (Link to this contribution) I may just carry on, as I know you are trying to get through the speakers, Mr Hoyle. The coalition ...
Andrew Bridgen | 525 c899 (Link to this contribution) I applaud the hon. Gentleman's honesty in saying that Conservative Chancellors are responsible, beca...
Geraint Davies | 525 c900-1 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is essentially about making growth a centrepiece of the Office for Budget Responsibili...
Stephen Williams | 525 c900 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman objects to taxes on fuel—we hear a lot from many Labour Members about their objec...
Lord Mann | 525 c900 (Link to this contribution) I struggle with the humour, Mr Deputy Speaker. The facts cannot be hidden. The facts about immigrat...
Chris Leslie | 525 c887 (Link to this contribution) I will not, if my hon. Friend will allow me, because I want to focus on what the OBR needs to take a...
Chris Leslie | 525 c889 (Link to this contribution) If the OBR could explicitly comment on employment and growth policy, it would be able to look at the...
Stewart Hosie | 525 c889 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way, but I am quite keen to probe this issue. What he...
Chris Leslie | 525 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) If a policy were having a significantly adverse effect on jobs, such as some of the policies pursued...
Justine Greening | 525 c892 (Link to this contribution) To reassure the hon. Gentleman, may I point out that the OBR is free to consider the impact of any G...
Chris Leslie | 525 c890 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will not give way. I have been speaking for rather a long time an...
Ian Murray | 525 c893 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Economic Secretary. As I have said previously in the House, she is one of the m...
Chris Leslie | 525 c878 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert—
Speaker | 525 c878 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 3, in clause 4, page 2, line 20...
Chris Leslie | 525 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) It is fitting that we are discussing the Bill the day before the Budget. I understand that there are...
Chris Leslie | 525 c879 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point about creating a third institution when it should be Parliam...
Mark Field | 525 c879 (Link to this contribution) But there is already a clear monetary mandate in the hands of the Bank of England. Surely a growth m...
Geraint Davies | 525 c905 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the man with the badge.
Justine Greening | 525 c907 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to have the opportunity finally to respond to some of the points that have been made an...
Justine Greening | 525 c915-7 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. As we have heard, this is an important Bil...
Mark Field | 525 c882 (Link to this contribution) It would probably be unwise for these provisions to be too wide. The credibility of inflation target...
Ian Murray | 525 c895 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Hoyle. I will resist the temptation to have another go at the Scottish National party ...
Chris Leslie | 525 c888-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and we should pay tribute to the previous Prime Minister for maintaining and establishing th...
Ian Murray | 525 c893 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend; I get on very well with the hon. Gentleman, so I consider him to be...
William Cash | 525 c880 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Minister and I took part in a debate the other day that goes to the heart of these questi...
Lord Mann | 525 c908 (Link to this contribution) That is a vital point, because Robert Chote was speaking as the first permanent employee. Others are...
Justine Greening | 525 c910 (Link to this contribution) Ultimately, a key clause—I think clause 5—sets out that it is at the OBR's discretion to decide how ...
Geraint Davies | 525 c887 (Link to this contribution) The Bill states:"““It is the duty of the Office to examine and report on the sustainability of the p...
Chris Leslie | 525 c881-2;525 c882 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, I just want to point out that in Committee we debated the r...
Chris Leslie | 525 c879-80 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps this is where I differ from the hon. Gentleman. I think that a slightly dry and narrow focus...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Audit Budgets Fiscal policy Economic growth Powers Public expenditure National Audit Office Public finance Treasury Social policy Office for Budget Responsibility
Legislation
Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk