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Debate on bill on Tuesday, 28 June 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Charles Clarke. The answering member was David Davis.

Identity Cards Bill

Identity Cards Bill. Second reading debate. Amendment debated and withdrawn. Main question agreed to on division (314 to 283). Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, on Report, in Third reading and programming of any other proceedings agreed to on division (313 to 286). Queens recommendation signified. Money resolution agreed to on division (311 to 219). Ways and Means resolution agreed to on question (formal).

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
435 c1151-1269 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Ways and means resolutions
Queen's recommendation
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Andrew Mackinlay | 435 c1162 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Home Secretary to the day on which the scheme becomes compulsory? People from the Uni...
Andrew Mackinlay | 435 c1180;435 c1179 (Link to this contribution) There is no way the Irish Parliament would accept that.
Show all contributions (287)
Charles Clarke | 435 c1155 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks. The obligation to make the informat...
Lord Cormack | 435 c1155-6;435 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Given that, even for the Home Secretary, this is the beginning of a new Parliament, and given all th...
Lord Garnier | 435 c1156;435 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes. May I return the Home Secretary to the Data Protection Act? The Government propose that the cit...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I will give assurances on charging in a moment. Various questions have been asked about whether pri...
Mike Weir | 435 c1156 (Link to this contribution) : I am concerned about that point. We have heard that private sector companies will have access to t...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if I was not clear enough, but I just said as clearly as I could that private sector comp...
Lord Redwood | 435 c1156-7;435 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Clause 15 says that the Government can demand the production of an ID card for purposes connected wi...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1157;435 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) The Bill states clearly that the ID card cannot be used as the sole means of verification of identit...
David Winnick | 435 c1157-8;435 c1157 (Link to this contribution) If we should not be at all concerned about these proposals, following all the reassurances that my r...
Boris Johnson | 435 c1158;435 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary obviously intends to make these things compulsory, and he has already talked abou...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I shall cover the cost aspect in a second. Were there to be compulsion—that is, after a vote had bee...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1158;435 c1157 (Link to this contribution) First, I cannot speak for the Information Commissioner. I do not think that he is right. He is a lon...
Diane Abbott | 435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) On the impact of ID cards—which must necessarily become compulsory in due course—on black and minori...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I do take seriously the concerns of various organisations representing minority ethnic communities, ...
Charles Walker | 435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State tell the House how he believes ID cards protected the people of New York...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that matter in a second.
Nick Palmer | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mark Oaten | 435 c1159;435 c1158 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary has just said that ethnic minorities have nothing to fear from this measure. Why,...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. The introduction process that we have discussed links ID cards to the passport, possibly...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1153-4;435 c1153 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend knows, the list is set out in the schedule to the Bill. I am happy, in Committee o...
Andrew Love | 435 c1153 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that up to 51 separate categories of information will be required for the regist...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1153 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to some particulars, but I before I do so I shall take a couple of interventions.
Nick Gibb | 435 c1153 (Link to this contribution) Given that the identity card database will have details of everyone’s fingerprints and other biometr...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1153 (Link to this contribution) I can give the assurance that the law of the land requires that the police can operate only in accor...
William Cash | 435 c1152 (Link to this contribution) Does the Home Secretary agree that the Information Commissioner’s remarks that the"““data trail of i...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1152-3;435 c1152 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the Information Commissioner, and I shall begin my remarks by explaining exactly...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1153;435 c1152-3 (Link to this contribution) I will give way shortly. I argue that the identity card has real benefits to the individual and soc...
Mark Fisher | 435 c1155 (Link to this contribution) If someone examines the data held on them and finds that they are inaccurate, what procedures exist ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary has referred twice to national security and the protection of society, which appe...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 435 c1155;435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) One cannot obtain data under the Data Protection Act if the information refers to security or crimin...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1155;435 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall, but I want to reassert the point that I made a second ago. Protections under the Bill for t...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) A further measure would have to be introduced in both the House and the other place. An affirmative ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1154-5;435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I shall make some progress and then give way. In the information society in which we live, identity...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the second question later. The number of checks depends entirely on the extent to ...
Jim Cunningham | 435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend confirm now or later that he would have to return to the House with furthe...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1154;435 c1153-4 (Link to this contribution) We fight all the time on all the issues that we have to tackle, including serious and organised crim...
Andrew Mitchell | 435 c1154 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give hon. Members two pieces of information? First, what, according to his e...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1151-2;435 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. I remind hon. Members that this Bill is bas...
Speaker | 435 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I have selected the amendment in the names of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones...
Tom Harris | 435 c1221 (Link to this contribution) I am spoiled for choice; I give way to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Horwood).
Martin Horwood | 435 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems with the Bill is not the use to which it would be put by a reasonable Government...
John Hemming | 435 c1221 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Martin Horwood | 435 c1221 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Diane Abbott | 435 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) The views of Opposition Front-Bench Members are a matter for them, but what does my hon. Friend have...
Tom Harris | 435 c1221 (Link to this contribution) I reserve the right to disagree with the Information Commissioner. The House has the right and the d...
Tom Harris | 435 c1220 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is falling into the same trap as Opposition Front-Bench Members. The Government h...
Glenda Jackson | 435 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the amendment that stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham,...
Tom Harris | 435 c1222 (Link to this contribution) I shall not submit to that nonsense—that a dictatorship is waiting to be elected to the government o...
Tim Farron | 435 c1222-5 (Link to this contribution) The opening sentence in the Library briefing on the Bill states:"““Identity cards existed in the Uni...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1230 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Carswell) on his eloquent speech. I am sure that we ...
John Hemming | 435 c1230-1 (Link to this contribution) : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the police national computer already records biometric data? The ...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1231 (Link to this contribution) That is right, but at the moment it applies only to people who have previously come into contact wit...
Glenda Jackson | 435 c1225-6 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) mentioned the last time that id...
Glenda Jackson | 435 c1226-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is giving the name of the individual—probably the actor, not the character. I am not ...
Andrew Love | 435 c1231 (Link to this contribution) : When I talk to my constituents about the issue, they think that it is generally a good idea. When ...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1231-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. That summarises public opinion at the moment. Most people think that it...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1232-3 (Link to this contribution) I am awfully sorry. I am running short of time. I apologise, as my hon. Friend offered to give way t...
Stewart Hosie | 435 c1233-4 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the whole debate. I listened particularly carefully to the Home Secretary. He lai...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1232 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Buckingham (John Bercow), with his customary acuity, detected my quizzical look....
Neil Gerrard | 435 c1236-7 (Link to this contribution) The more I consider the Bill, the more I am convinced that the problem is not the identity card but ...
John Hemming | 435 c1234 (Link to this contribution) : There are 73 million live national insurance records, but only 46.5 million people in this country...
Stewart Hosie | 435 c1234-6 (Link to this contribution) A number of IT projects and databases need to be cleaned up. I am not sure about the figures—the hon...
Damian Green | 435 c1237-8 (Link to this contribution) Last year, in the last Parliament, I voted against the Bill content in the knowledge that I was doin...
John Bercow | 435 c1232 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman seemed quizzical about, not to say astonished by, the idea that the Opposition ...
William Cash | 435 c1240-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) referred to principles. Let me give him a principle ...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 435 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) In view of the time, I have torn up the civil liberties peroration with which I was hoping to entert...
Ben Wallace | 435 c1242-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend in the short time allocated to discuss the ideology behind the ID card, but rather t...
Kali Mountford | 435 c1243-5 (Link to this contribution) I have a copy of the ““LSE Identity Project Report””, and I found in it part of a sentence with whic...
Baroness Featherstone | 435 c1245-6 (Link to this contribution) There are so many reasons to oppose the Bill that unfortunately I do not have time to go through the...
Alan Simpson | 435 c1246-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not have any problems with identity cards. I have several of them. I have a passport, a driving...
John Penrose | 435 c1247-8 (Link to this contribution) Much has been said this evening about the likelihood of cost overruns with a large and complicated G...
Diane Abbott | 435 c1248-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the House for allowing me to take part in this important debate. There are many rea...
Mark Todd | 435 c1238 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to debate the principles of this proposal. ID cards are commonly used in democratic ...
Tony McNulty | 435 c1255-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), in his wisdom, made a telling contribution....
Speaker | 435 c1255 (Link to this contribution) Order. The House must come to order.
Tony McNulty | 435 c1253-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) that there were 33 speeches; h...
Lord Garnier | 435 c1251-3 (Link to this contribution) We have had 33 contributors to the debate and they have broadly been divided into two camps—surprise...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 435 c1250-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Bill would give a national identity scheme commissioner oversight of th...
Speaker | 435 c1250 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady has waited all night to address the House. It is bad manners to be in loud conv...
Roberta Blackman-Woods | 435 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I broadly support the Bill. Identity cards could assist with the prevention and detection of crime, ...
John Hemming | 435 c1249 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about the impact of clause 6? If someone cut their finger a...
Tobias Ellwood | 435 c1249-50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point and shows how important it is to scrutinise those provisions ...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1256 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. I shall be voting ag...
David Heath | 435 c1260 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You and the whole House will have heard the Home Secretary, in res...
Speaker | 435 c1260 (Link to this contribution) What I am doing tonight is inviting the Government to move the motion.
David Davis | 435 c1181-2;435 c1180-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. We must also remember the three-month period—I almost said ““excl...
Speaker | 435 c1182;435 c1181 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a 10-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, whic...
David Davis | 435 c1179 (Link to this contribution) According to what I understood the Home Secretary to say, the answer is no. There is a huge lacuna i...
David Davis | 435 c1180;435 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that there is no way a number of members of the Democratic Unionist party would accept it ...
John Baron | 435 c1180-1;435 c1180 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that, even if the biometrics were 100 per cent. foolproof, which man...
David Davis | 435 c1179-80;435 c1179 (Link to this contribution) A new Liberal Democrat policy is being founded, it seems. The simple fact is that there is a common...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1185-6;435 c1185 (Link to this contribution) In that particular case, that is so, but it would not necessarily require an ID card to make the lin...
David Winnick | 435 c1182-3;435 c1182 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will continue. The previous Home Secretary accepted, like my r...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1183;435 c1182 (Link to this contribution) : The implied admission by the Home Office is that identity cards can be forged.
David Winnick | 435 c1183;435 c1182 (Link to this contribution) No one would deny the obvious, which is that biometric cards would be that much more difficult to fo...
David Winnick | 435 c1183-5;435 c1182-4 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not. When the Home Affairs Committee took evidence, the p...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1185;435 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) As politicians, we always have to make judgments before supporting any measure. We need to be convin...
Tom Harris | 435 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman nevertheless accept what my right hon. Friend said in his statement—that eve...
David Winnick | 435 c1182;435 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) To get matters in perspective, perhaps we should remember that the Leader of the Opposition was an a...
Patrick Hall | 435 c1191 (Link to this contribution) With regard to the efficacy of the iris biometrics, why is the hon. Gentleman ready to dismiss the C...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1191;435 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right. We are being asked not only to sign a blank cheq...
Lord Garnier | 435 c1191;435 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The situation is made worse by the fact that this is an enabling Bill—it is devoid of detail—so thos...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1191;435 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The Minister disagrees from a sedentary position, but he must recognise that there is real concern, ...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1191-2;435 c1191 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary has been telling us all afternoon that we should listen not to the academics but ...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1190-1;435 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get into what may be inaccurate, but I certainly agree that the concerns about such...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1190;435 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. My fear is simply this. Now that the Home Secretary has...
Diane Abbott | 435 c1190 (Link to this contribution) : On the question of the database, as if the scenario that the hon. Gentleman outlines were not frig...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1193-4;435 c1192-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is absolutely right. We will have a two-tier society—a some-in, some-out society—in wh...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1193;435 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is correct, but the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to decide that certain...
George Howarth | 435 c1194;435 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly puzzled by the contribution of the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten). Either he h...
George Howarth | 435 c1194 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once, to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood), but time is important....
Mark Oaten | 435 c1192;435 c1191 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to push on because other hon. Members wish to speak. I want to touch on the Bill’s civil...
John Denham | 435 c1192;435 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman aware that hospital trusts currently have the legal requirement to establish w...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I am opposed to the compulsory system towards which we are heading which will, in the Government’s w...
Lembit Opik | 435 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware how out of kilter Labour Members are? Wales, which has a Labour-led Administ...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1187-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman makes my point. The Government state a figure, make out that there is...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 435 c1187 (Link to this contribution) : On that interesting issue, the document notes that £400 million of that £1.3 billion related to mo...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1187;435 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) It makes no difference at what point identity is checked. The point is whether we should ask the hea...
Martin Linton | 435 c1187;435 c1186 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is NHS policy not to make any identity checks when people com...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1187;435 c1186 (Link to this contribution) When the hon. Gentleman went into an accident and emergency department to have his arm treated, woul...
Martin Linton | 435 c1187;435 c1186 (Link to this contribution) : Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the national health service makes no checks on identity before pr...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1186 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention and I shall deal shortly with the failure rate of iris scans in ...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 435 c1186 (Link to this contribution) During the course of taking evidence on laser surgery, it became clear to me that most consultant op...
Kali Mountford | 435 c1186;435 c1185 (Link to this contribution) : I shall put to the hon. Gentleman the question that I put to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1186;435 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) That is what people are doing already. They will be able to move from country to country because the...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1189;435 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) I want to move on. There is another issue, in relation to costs. If the Government are serious abou...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1189;435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly much more intrusive than the current system, which involves going to Boots to have a...
Mark Fisher | 435 c1189-90;435 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the cost to the public will include the cost of readers, and ...
Adam Afriyie | 435 c1189;435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman consider it dignified for the elderly and those with disabilities to queue t...
David Heath | 435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) Another cost to the individual has not been highlighted. We are told that what the Government euphem...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point in several regards. There will be the cost and inconvenience...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1189;435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) The point goes even further than the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) suggests. People...
John Denham | 435 c1204-6;435 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) Not at the moment. The cost or risk of failure has been overstated even if something went wrong wit...
Mark Fisher | 435 c1206 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to my right hon. Friend particularly closely, because he chaired the former Home Affa...
John Denham | 435 c1206 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will imply some flexibility. The present timetable is unfortunate, because ...
John Denham | 435 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) It is quite straightforward. The private sector will not be able to get its hands on the national id...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1210 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Frank Dobson | 435 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr. Holloway) on his maiden speech, which was delive...
Frank Dobson | 435 c1210-1 (Link to this contribution) No, I need to make progress and other Members want to speak. It is not the issues of principle that...
Lord Lilley | 435 c1211-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) who has ...
Austin Mitchell | 435 c1216 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely true, and I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for putting that ...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1215-6 (Link to this contribution) Is there not an additional element in the cost, which has not been taken into account? Other parties...
Austin Mitchell | 435 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. The Government are now attempting to keep down the estimated costs so as not to fr...
Tom Harris | 435 c1219-20 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) on his maiden speech. We could ...
Austin Mitchell | 435 c1216-7 (Link to this contribution) About 20 per cent. of the population do not have passports. They prefer to take their holidays in Yo...
Austin Mitchell | 435 c1214-5 (Link to this contribution) Many Members who have spoken today have expressed concern about the civil liberties aspect of the Bi...
Tim Loughton | 435 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to appear cynical, but can the hon. Gentleman explain how providing surveillance of 99...
George Howarth | 435 c1194-5 (Link to this contribution) No, I said that I was only going to give way once. The issue of which freedom is being taken away f...
Jeremy Browne | 435 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) If the Labour Government are in office when the Bill’s provisions bite on the public their reputatio...
Tobias Ellwood | 435 c1194 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talked about freedoms and the freedom to show that one is innocent. How can it be...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1196-8;435 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The point has been made that once an identity card scheme is set up as a gateway, all the fr...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1198;435 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) The more people understand the Bill’s implications, the more they realise that what is a superficial...
Justine Greening | 435 c1198 (Link to this contribution) On the penetration of security, we currently have 80 million national insurance numbers in this coun...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) That is not particularly relevant. The Government are taking steps to remove the superfluous numbers...
Peter Robinson | 435 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate my hon. Friend’s contribution. His comments are relevant and we shall take them into ac...
William Cash | 435 c1203 (Link to this contribution) The Government made it clear that the Bill would be excluded from a draft regulation of the European...
Peter Robinson | 435 c1203 (Link to this contribution) It is because I am not content that I ask the Minister to deal with the issue when he responds. Inde...
Lord Garnier | 435 c1203 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman correctly says that, under our law, Ireland is not a foreign country for several ...
Peter Robinson | 435 c1201-3;435 c1200-3 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones). Although as yet I have...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1199-201;435 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and one registration ombudsman, as it were, has already expressed his conce...
Andrew Love | 435 c1199 (Link to this contribution) One concern is that the ID cards commissioner will have no real powers to investigate such areas and...
Ben Wallace | 435 c1204 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
John Denham | 435 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the country needs an identity card system and a national identity register and I will...
Mark Todd | 435 c1239-40 (Link to this contribution) No, I shall not give way. My interest is in two aspects of the Bill. The first is whether the benef...
Kali Mountford | 435 c1176 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making the case that the identity secured could be a false identity in t...
Baroness Hoey | 435 c1179 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give us his take on what the Home Secretary said about what I would de...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1192-3;435 c1192 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend’s intervention illustrates the wisdom of the Welsh. I understand that the Scottish Ex...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1206 (Link to this contribution) On the radio this morning, the Home Secretary said that he would consider committing the Bill to a S...
Speaker | 435 c1236 (Link to this contribution) As many hon. Members are still seeking to catch my eye, in accordance with the Order of the House of...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1189;435 c1188 (Link to this contribution) Imagine an average family with two teenage children and maybe a granny, and you can bet your bottom ...
Andrew Love | 435 c1215 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the combination of escalating costs and compulsion is likely to cause...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1170-1;435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Speaker. I shall try to make progress and to give way only once more before I fin...
John P Smith | 435 c1174;435 c1173 (Link to this contribution) On the point about countries that have chosen or not chosen to introduce the identity card, does the...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Not at this stage. I will do so later. I argue that the ID card system is in fact a bulwark against...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1160-1;435 c1160 (Link to this contribution) I told you that I will give way later—[Hon. Members: ““Ooh!””] My hon. Friend is very persistent and...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1160 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Charles Clarke | 435 c1160;435 c1159-60 (Link to this contribution) In a second. The effect of moving to a biometric passport is to raise the cost of the passport to o...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1159-60;435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to a number of Members when I come to the end of this passage, as I have been doing....
David Howarth | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way on that point?
Charles Clarke | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Not at this stage. The first phase of biometric passports, in line with ICAO standards, incorporati...
Ben Wallace | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) Will the Home Secretary give way?
Charles Clarke | 435 c1159 (Link to this contribution) I will make some more progress at this stage. I turn now to the second concern, which many Members ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1161;435 c1160 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment, but at a time of my choosing. I intend to provide more detail on the G...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1161;435 c1160-1 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the Government are entirely of the view that it would be ridiculous to have an expensive ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1162;435 c1161-2 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly explain that I have had informal discussions with Ministers of the Irish Government ...
David Davis | 435 c1162;435 c1161 (Link to this contribution) In that case, can the Home Secretary explain to the House how the common travel arrangements will wo...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1162-3;435 c1162 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, with all due respect, misunderstands my point. The joint travel area system works no...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1161 (Link to this contribution) On my hon. Friend’s second point, I have already made it clear—I hope that she accepts that this rea...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for his kind remarks and for giving way. What is the status of the prop...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1162;435 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give that assurance. As I said in a letter to the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the Iden...
Lord Bannside | 435 c1162;435 c1161 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the letter that he sent to our party on this issue, which we ha...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1163;435 c1162 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend that some of the fantastic figures circulating around in the media have ...
Rob Marris | 435 c1163;435 c1162-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his customary generosity, but I would like to probe him fu...
Martin Salter | 435 c1163;435 c1162 (Link to this contribution) May I press the Home Secretary a little further on the issue of capping the charge? One of the reaso...
Neil Gerrard | 435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) The cost of course depends on the model that is adopted. We have heard much about international requ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) That is an entirely reasonable point and would be taken into consideration when the House came to co...
Tony Wright | 435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) Surely the issue of cost changes if we move to compulsion. Having a card would then cease to be a ma...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I am always interested in side deals with my hon. Friend, who is a talented and skilled financial op...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1164;435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that precisely that idea is under consideration.
John Bercow | 435 c1164;435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) Many Opposition Members voted against the Second Reading of the previous Bill as a matter of princip...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1164;435 c1163 (Link to this contribution) There are none. I do not make the argument for the identity card process that we propose on the basi...
Alison Seabeck | 435 c1164;435 c1163-4 (Link to this contribution) We have heard much this afternoon about the cost of the passport to individuals, but there will be a...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to say that identity fraud is a big issue, but I will deal with that in the ...
Helen Jones | 435 c1164 (Link to this contribution) One can envisage a situation in which, even when identity cards are not compulsory, poor people beco...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 435 c1165;435 c1164 (Link to this contribution) As usual, the Home Secretary is generous in giving way and we appreciate that. May I take the right...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1164 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely correct and that is why I made specific reference to that point earlier i...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1165;435 c1164-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is a major hole. There is no doubt that the Irish Government, the Dail, will ...
Glenda Jackson | 435 c1166 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has referred to banks and to libraries, and he has referred to the ability of a...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1166 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second, but I want to make my argument in my own way. Jean-Louis Bruguière, Fr...
Mark Oaten | 435 c1177;435 c1176 (Link to this contribution) Is not the position even worse, in that the Home Office’s study on whether the scheme can be realise...
David Davis | 435 c1176-7;435 c1176 (Link to this contribution) No. In about two minutes, I will explain to the hon. Lady why that will, unfortunately, remain too e...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1177;435 c1176 (Link to this contribution) And there is another point—if these cards are a prerequisite to obtaining benefit from public servic...
David Davis | 435 c1177;435 c1176 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend makes an excellent point, with which I shall deal shortly. Of all ...
David Davis | 435 c1175 (Link to this contribution) We have seen window taxes and poll taxes, but this is a breathing tax. The right to citizenship of t...
John Bercow | 435 c1175-6;435 c1175 (Link to this contribution) A variation on the theme highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Sheph...
Speaker | 435 c1176;435 c1175 (Link to this contribution) Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, I remind hon. Members that interventions are getting longer...
David Davis | 435 c1176;435 c1175-6 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for rescuing me from having to reply. The second test is this: does ...
Richard Shepherd | 435 c1175 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary has said that the Bill will enable us to assert our right to be here. It is an ex...
David Davis | 435 c1179;435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) I think that I should finish what I have to say. We must allow some other Members to speak at some p...
David Davis | 435 c1179;435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) That was part of the difference, as I understand it. I do not think that the Home Secretary was righ...
Martin Linton | 435 c1179;435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Davis | 435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He may remember that on Second Reading, and I think even on T...
Andrew Love | 435 c1178-9;435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Does not the essential difference between the LSE’s position and that of the Government lie in wheth...
David Davis | 435 c1178;435 c1177-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall revert to that shortly. However, there are two external reports—the Kable report and the LSE...
Mark Fisher | 435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Given the importance of cost, would not it be more satisfactory for the House to proceed by inviting...
David Davis | 435 c1177-8;435 c1177 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. It is interesting that the Home Office is relying on the cumulative eff...
Lord McCabe | 435 c1178;435 c1177 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the right hon. Gentleman’s opposition to the Bill, but does he stand unequivocally by ev...
Damian Green | 435 c1167-8;435 c1167 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the Home Secretary back to the benefits to the citizens of this country, particularly so...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1168;435 c1167 (Link to this contribution) There are two points to make in response to that. First, the organisations concerned will decide whe...
Geraldine Smith | 435 c1168;435 c1167 (Link to this contribution) On people trafficking, international terrorism and illegal immigration, if identity cards are so hel...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1168;435 c1167 (Link to this contribution) We hope to make it compulsory over time; we have set that out very clearly in the Bill. We have not ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1167;435 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) To be quite candid, I decided not to go into this type of partisan political point, first because it...
Lord McCabe | 435 c1167;435 c1166 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way. When the Leader of the Opposition told The ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1167 (Link to this contribution) From a sedentary position, the hon. Gentleman makes the position quite clear—and the embarrassed smi...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1166-7;435 c1166 (Link to this contribution) In each case, it will be a matter for the authority providing a public service to consider whether i...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1169 (Link to this contribution) First, the point that I was making about Madrid is very simple. Contrary to what some people allege,...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1170;435 c1169-70 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way again. I am going to make progress on the point about the capacity to run major ...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1169;435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way one more time, before making more progress.
Mark Fisher | 435 c1169;435 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) On the necessity of carrying a card, will the Home Secretary clarify two points? First, he cited the...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1169;435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I can tell the House that the permanent secretaries of the Departments that I have been involved wit...
Edward Leigh | 435 c1169;435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) The Home Secretary knows that the Home Office has a long record of difficulties with major IT projec...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1169;435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) This is so exciting. I will give way to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
Charles Clarke | 435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) That was a terribly tragic situation, but I am afraid that my hon. Friend makes the case that I am s...
Geraldine Smith | 435 c1168 (Link to this contribution) I would also say, ““Do not charge people from general taxation””. On the Morecambe bay tragedy to wh...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1168;435 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second. If we look at the issues of people trafficking, there is absolutely no...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1171;435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) I give way for a final time to the hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown).
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 435 c1171 (Link to this contribution) About 37 million people in this country aged over 16 would be liable to have an identity card over a...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1171;435 c1171 (Link to this contribution) We have already set out a regulatory impact assessment that can be relied on, but I repeat the assur...
Lynne Jones | 435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Speaker | 435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) Order. I heard the Home Secretary say that he was not going to give way. I must remind the House tha...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1171;435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice).
Charles Clarke | 435 c1171;435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) The report that I cited indicates that with irises on the database,"““with reasonable acceptance thr...
Gordon Prentice | 435 c1171;435 c1170 (Link to this contribution) Why can my friend not tell us the failure rate of identifying biometrics that would be acceptable? T...
Simon Hughes | 435 c1175;435 c1174-5 (Link to this contribution) Do the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks mean that it is now the Conservative party’s settled opinion t...
David Davis | 435 c1175 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely with the hon. Gentleman’s last point—I will let his earlier political points go—a...
Nick Palmer | 435 c1173;435 c1172 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that it is misleading to suggest that to verify a claim of ...
Viscount Hailsham | 435 c1172 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has drawn attention to the way in which Governments develop their proposals. Wo...
David Davis | 435 c1172;435 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) May I congratulate the Home Secretary on a bravura performance in which he defended the indefensible...
David Davis | 435 c1174-5;435 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. The reason the common law countries are unique in ...
David Davis | 435 c1173-4;435 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) No, it is not misleading. Presumably, the police will have card readers that will make the process q...
Geoffrey Cox | 435 c1217-9 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in the House for the first time. I have the...
Douglas Carswell | 435 c1228-30 (Link to this contribution) I begin my maiden speech by honouring those who preceded me as Member of Parliament for Harwich and ...
Adam Holloway | 435 c1207-10 (Link to this contribution) I know that it is conventional to say nice things about one’s predecessor, but even if it were not, ...
Tobias Ellwood | 435 c1249 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, as we reach the conclusion of an important debate tha...
David Davis | 435 c1179;435 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Or their gender, indeed. I do not know whether that is an expression of ambition. Now I am shocking ...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 435 c1196 (Link to this contribution) Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s experience at the criminal Bar not suggested to him that ...
George Howarth | 435 c1194 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is conflating two arguments, but if he is patient, I will refer to cost in a mome...
Charles Clarke | 435 c1165-6 (Link to this contribution) I will give way again later, but I want to make some progress. The next stage of my argument relate...
David Davis | 435 c1172 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend has anticipated my next point. I would simply add that many of the ...
Subjects
Civil liberties Data protection Databases Biometrics Crime prevention Costs Fraud Employment Fingerprints Enforcement Identity cards Undocumented migrants Ethnic groups National security Privacy Public opinion Proof of identity Passports Minority groups Race relations Registration Terrorism Technology
Legislation
Identity Cards Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk