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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 12 October 2005, in the House of Lords.

Children and Adoption Bill [HL]

Children and Adoption Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage second day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
674 c69-124GC 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Education and Skills
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Northbourne | 674 c73-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31: "Page 2, line 16, at end insert—" ““(   )   Subject to subsection (8), in...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c72-3GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you. Perhaps I may go into the slightly longer version to help clarify matters. The amendments...
Show all contributions (106)
Lord Northbourne | 674 c94GC (Link to this contribution) I briefly declare an interest—for many years I chaired the Parenting Education and Support Forum. Th...
Lord Haskel | 674 c91GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 48 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 49, because of pre-emption.
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c117GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness give way? Does she accept that the situations that she has just described ar...
Earl Howe | 674 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution) To reject the proposition that there should be no statutory presumption of a reasonable meaningful r...
Lord Adonis | 674 c116GC (Link to this contribution) Our belief is that the courts make reasonable judgments at present.
Lord Adonis | 674 c114-6GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, a key issue before this proposal even gets past first base will be some agreement on w...
Earl Howe | 674 c107-9GC (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the Committee, I shall start my remarks again, as it is perhaps easier to pick up ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c113-4GC (Link to this contribution) We have gone over a lot of the ground that we covered yesterday, which I sense that we shall go over...
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c105GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that. I shall read carefully what he has had to say on this group of amen...
Lord Adonis | 674 c119GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 68 to 70: "Page 5, line 14, at end insert—" ““(2A)   An individual falls wi...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c72GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their incisive look at the issue. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred specif...
Baroness Barker | 674 c71-2GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness will clarify something for me in relation to Amendment No. 60, which, in ...
Earl Howe | 674 c71GC (Link to this contribution) I am all for the objective which the noble Baroness has just articulated of making the Bill simpler ...
Lord Haskel | 674 c69GC (Link to this contribution) I start by reminding the Committee that the usual procedures in Grand Committee apply, even though w...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c76GC (Link to this contribution) In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I believe that sperm donors are protected from paren...
Lord Adonis | 674 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 36: "Page 2, line 29, leave out from ““made”” to ““the”” in line 30 and insert ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) When we prepare for the next spending review, which we are starting to do, we will take full account...
Lord Adonis | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I shall have to write to the noble Earl about the proposals for the recruitment of judges. I am sure...
Lord Haskel | 674 c89GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 37 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 38 because of pre-emption.
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c78-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 32: "Page 2, line 16, at end insert—" ““(   )   The effect of the contact ord...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c83GC (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading I asked whether there had been consultation about the Bill with children, and the ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c83-6GC (Link to this contribution) I recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, is in an invidious position on this Committee, in...
Baroness Barker | 674 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for his reply. It would perhaps be useful to Members of the Committee...
Lord Adonis | 674 c94-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for these probing amendments, which give us an opportunity to look at the timelin...
Earl Howe | 674 c97-8GC (Link to this contribution) : I always listen with great attention to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and I found a great dea...
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c96-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 56: "Page 4, line 6, after ““condition)”” insert ““and about the child in relat...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c93-4GC (Link to this contribution) Although I rise to speak to Amendment No. 55, I should like to say how much I agree with the noble B...
Lord Haskel | 674 c90GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 41 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment Nos. 42 and 43.
Lord Adonis | 674 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 44: "Page 3, line 7, after ““individual”” insert ““falling within subsection (2...
Lord Adonis | 674 c91GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 46 to 47: "Page 3, line 8, at end insert—" ““(2A)   An individual falls wit...
Lord Adonis | 674 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 39 and 40: "Page 2, line 33, at end insert—" ““(4A)   An order falls within...
Earl Howe | 674 c119GC (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed that the Minister said that he does not expect the plans to be very far advanced. ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c118GC (Link to this contribution) So the noble Earl does not agree with the concept of one third.
Lord Adonis | 674 c118GC (Link to this contribution) I shall come back to the noble Earl and write to Members of the Committee on where we are with regar...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c117GC (Link to this contribution) I believe they are unreasonable and that is why I do not think that we should have that kind of stat...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c117GC (Link to this contribution) I shall challenge that. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said this more eloquently than I can, but I con...
Earl Howe | 674 c114GC (Link to this contribution) To insert one word—““reasonable””.
Lord Adonis | 674 c114GC (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Earl tell us what the simple change in the law is, then?
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have a prepared speech, but I obviously have to say something. I have thought very carefull...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c113GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1, as far as I understand it, is a very helpful and instructive contribution to this area of ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c105GC (Link to this contribution) Actually, communicating with the child is normally done by one of the parents involved, unless they ...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c99GC (Link to this contribution) In respect of what the noble Baroness has said, I strongly agree with her. However, it is dependent ...
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c99GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, who has not managed to get back here yet...
Lord Adonis | 674 c100-4GC (Link to this contribution) This is a difficult and emotive issue in which the principles are very clear. In fact, they could no...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c100GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister alluded to research by Professor Smart into the area of children’s voices. I received s...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c99-100GC (Link to this contribution) I was wondering whether it was appropriate for me to speak at this time. I sometimes lose track abou...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c119-20GC (Link to this contribution) The motion in my name to oppose the clause stand part is, in part, due to our stance on the Bill. As...
Lord Adonis | 674 c121-3GC (Link to this contribution) In bringing this disjointed debate to a conclusion at the end of our second day in Committee, perhap...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c69-71GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 29: "Page 2, line 14, at end insert—" ““(   )   Subsection (2) has effect sub...
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c75-6GC (Link to this contribution) I added my name to these amendments because I felt it was important to have this debate on parental ...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c76GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to both noble Baronesses who have spoken. I had thought about sperm donors; when ...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c73GC (Link to this contribution) This provision addresses the point raised by the noble Baroness through Amendments Nos. 54 and 59. T...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c72GC (Link to this contribution) Did the noble Earl also refer to Amendment No. 50?
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this little debate. Noble Lords will not be surprised...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt. I thank the Minister for his response on the issue of arrangements in divor...
Lord Adonis | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to write to the noble Earl on that point. A parenting plan is available to parents dealin...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I think that there is a difference between research and inspection, and I have found CAFCASS to be o...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c76-8GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that this is quite informal. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate....
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply, and look forward to receiving his letter. It was mentioned durin...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 674 c98GC (Link to this contribution) Without necessarily expressing an opinion as to the efficacy of these amendments, it seems to me tha...
Lord Adonis | 674 c92GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48: "Page 3, leave out lines 15 to 22." On Question, amendment agreed to. [Am...
Lord Adonis | 674 c92GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 50 to 52: "Page 3, leave out lines 23 to 25." "Page 3, line 26, leave out ““...
Baroness Barker | 674 c92GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 54: "Page 3, line 44, at end insert ““and is appropriately qualified””" The no...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c118-9GC (Link to this contribution) In order to clarify matters for Report stage, would the noble Lord be prepared to write to me and to...
Lord Adonis | 674 c119GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 63 to 65: "Page 5, line 7, leave out from ““varying”” to end of line 8 and in...
Earl Howe | 674 c117-8GC (Link to this contribution) I would not disagree with that for one second. I say to the noble Baroness that to build in a statut...
Earl Howe | 674 c114GC (Link to this contribution) I gave as an illustration the 70-30 split, but it was merely an illustration. It was not intended th...
Earl Howe | 674 c106-7GC (Link to this contribution) There is a very simple truth associated with contact disputes. It is that if both parties to the dis...
Lord Adonis | 674 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 60 to 61:"Page 4, leave out lines 21 to 30 and insert—" ““(1)   The Secretar...
Baroness Barker | 674 c109-11GC (Link to this contribution) I add the weight of this side of the Committee to most of what the noble Earl has just said so eloqu...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the view that has been expressed by both speakers. The current situation is not s...
Viscount Simon | 674 c99GC (Link to this contribution) A Division has been called. We shall adjourn for 10 minutes and then resume. [The sitting was suspe...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 674 c120-1GC (Link to this contribution) Lest the Minister and the Committee run away with the idea that CAFCASS can do all this extra work w...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed reply and congratulate him on being able to keep going despite...
Baroness Barker | 674 c121GC (Link to this contribution) Given that the contact which is to be monitored in this section includes the new range of contact ac...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c121GC (Link to this contribution) If judges tell us that they only read the first two pages and the last page of 50-page reports, then...
Baroness Crawley | 674 c124GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.
Baroness Barker | 674 c73GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that. I am not sure that she has. It would be best not to delay the C...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I do not think that he addressed the important points raised by the n...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c87GC (Link to this contribution) That would be very helpful. It would also be helpful to have an idea of the timescale in relation to...
Lord Adonis | 674 c89GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37: "Page 2, leave out lines 31 to 33 and insert—" ““(   )   it makes provisi...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c79-81GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my amendments in this group, Amendments Nos. 114, 117, 118 and 119. I am most grate...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 674 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution) I feel like reminding myself that I am a mere Cross-Bencher, looking at the noble Baroness, Lady Wal...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c83GC (Link to this contribution) I very strongly support in principle the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, i...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c78GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I shall have to read what she said but I think that she may wel...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his very detailed and reassuring response to my concerns. Perhaps he could ...
Baroness Barker | 674 c96GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 55 not moved...
Lord Adonis | 674 c90GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 41: "Page 2, leave out lines 37 to 41." On Question, amendment agreed to. [Am...
Baroness Barker | 674 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution) We return to two amendments which deal with an important issue: the qualifications expected of those...
Earl Howe | 674 c118GC (Link to this contribution) Let us get away from the one-third issue.
Earl Howe | 674 c118GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment introduced by my noble friend proposing a one-third split as a minimum was a means of ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c118GC (Link to this contribution) I think that we shall return to this matter. However, the noble Earl needs to be clear. Unless I hav...
Earl Howe | 674 c116GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the Minister a simple question. Does he or does he not support the presumption of ...
Lord Adonis | 674 c114GC (Link to this contribution) In that case the key issue, which we can debate fully on Report but can discuss before, is what the ...
Baroness Walmsley | 674 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for that full explanation. On the first four amendments, his stat...
Lord Northbourne | 674 c98GC (Link to this contribution) It might be helpful to the noble Baroness in reframing—
Earl of Listowel | 674 c99GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to intervene briefly, but I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, would like to m...
Earl of Listowel | 674 c120GC (Link to this contribution) It has been argued that the monitoring of these orders would be carried out by the CAFCASS officers....
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c124GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Monday.
Subjects
Children Adoption Applications CAFCASS Contact orders Absent parents Domestic abuse Family proceedings Qualifications Protection Parents Monitoring Staff Parental responsibility
Legislation
Children and Adoption Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk