Debate on bill on Monday, 28 November 2005, in the House of Lords.

Commons Bill [HL]

Commons Bill (HL). Lords Report stage first day

Secondary information

Type: Parliamentary proceeding
Reference: 676 c9-81
Session: 2005-06
Department: Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Legislative stage: Report stage
Procedure: New clauses
Chamber / Committee: House of Lords chamber
Related items: Commons Bill (HL) . As amended in Grand Committee (HL)
Monday, 14 November 2005
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions: Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c54 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure whether I will be in a position to deal with the noble Duke’s question, but ...; Lord Greaves | 676 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, may well withdraw his amendment, but whether he is satisfied...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, government Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 are minor technical amendments to Clause 16 to bring ...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c54 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the further depths of the government amendmen...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c55-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24:"After Clause 16, insert the following new clause—" ““CHANGES IN OWNERSHIP ...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c55 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 21 to 23:"Page 9, line 12, at end insert—" ““(6A) The appropriate national...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c57-9 (Link to this contribution) I begin by speaking to Amendment No. 24. We are unable to support the noble Lord’s amendment. The no...; Baroness Byford | 676 c57 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 33, which is grouped with this amendment and also refers to...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c59 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 25:"Page 10, line 4, leave out ““previously”” and insert ““which, immediately be...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c59 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may respond to the Minister. First, we agree with the amendment on funding, move...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c60 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26:"Page 12, line 6, leave out ““fair”” and insert ““just””" The noble Baroness...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for moving this amendment. It is a sensible redrafting of the word ““...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27:"Page 12, line 29, leave out subsection (2)." On Question, amendment agreed ...; Baroness Byford | 676 c61 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28:"Page 13, line 4, at end insert—" (2) The rectification of mistakes under...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be helpful if I confirm that that is my intention with the amendment.; Baroness Byford | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I think that he was a little confused in his answer on Am...; Lord Bach | 676 c62-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment No. 28 would require the transitional period for correcting mistakes in the regi...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 28, Amendment No. 29: Line 2, leave out ““rectification”” a...; Baroness Byford | 676 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments on my Amendments Nos. 28, 30 and 80, and I thank the...; Lord Greaves | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may be tedious and ask another question before the noble Lord sits down again. A...; Lord Bach | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, indeed not. I do not know how long after the Bill is enacted Part 1 will commence, but we ...; Lord Greaves | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Lord technically sits down, in replying to my question on behalf of the R...; Lord Bach | 676 c65 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I meant what I said. There is no reason why commons associations cannot be established bef...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c66 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the basis that the Minister will helpfully write to us to clarify the position, I beg l...; Baroness Byford | 676 c66 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister.; Lord Greaves | 676 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 31:"Page 14, line 23, after ““authority”” insert ““in relation to such an applic...; Baroness Byford | 676 c66 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment No. 28, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 23 ...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 34:"Page 15, line 29, leave out ““substantial support”” and insert ““majority su...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would seem that majority support among the councillors would reflect the democratic dec...; Lord Bach | 676 c70-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall respond as briefly as I can. This is an important topic and it has arisen in a num...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, do I recall correctly that the establishment of a commons association will cost between £1...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c67 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am able to do exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, wishes. Amendment No. 31 seeks ...; Baroness Byford | 676 c68 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 33:"Page 14, line 42, at end insert—" ““( ) Regulations under subsection (...; Lord Bach | 676 c73 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in writing to the noble Baroness about agri-environment schemes generally, I may be able a...; Lord Bach | 676 c73 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very interesting point. Sometimes local authorities may assist ...; Earl Peel | 676 c73 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, further to the noble Baroness’s important point about funding, I suspect that in most case...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c75 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad to support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I shall be inte...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment No. 36 addresses the question of the management of a common, because decisions a...; Lord Greaves | 676 c74 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 35:"Page 16, line 7, leave out ““not””" The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amen...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have participated in this interesting exchange. We have exp...; Lord Bach | 676 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, certainly, in that situation, I agree that they would have every right to be consulted. Wh...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c76 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to clarify why I am so concerned about commons associations’ rights to be co...; Lord Bach | 676 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) Commons associations are to be established primarily to improve the management of agricultural activ...; Lord Greaves | 676 c77 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the Minister sits down and before I reply, perhaps I may beg the patience of the Ho...; Lord Bach | 676 c77 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is an important question, which I do not want to speak back on without any thought. I...; Lord Greaves | 676 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept that. I thank the Minister for the excellent, detailed and informative letters th...; Lord Greaves | 676 c78 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have been doing quite well today.; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c78 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt here.; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c78 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has sat down. He has spoken. The mover of the amendment may speak. I am being...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c78 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Miller mentioned flooding. Other noble Lords have mentioned 40 years....; Baroness Byford | 676 c78-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37:"Page 17, line 1, leave out ““members”” and insert ““officers””" The noble B...; Lord Greaves | 676 c78 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is for us to decide, of course. Perhaps we are all being stretched. I was a little su...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c80-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will reply to the specific amendment and what it does. The word ““members”” is a referen...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, for giving me the opportunity to questio...; Baroness Byford | 676 c81 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdra...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c81 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be now adjourned. Moved accordingly, and, on Q...; Baroness Byford | 676 c34 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be very brief. Many noble Lords have covered ground that I would normally cover an...; Lord Cameron of Dillington | 676 c33-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the flexibility that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, is seeking to introduce. We...; Lord Inglewood | 676 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, particularly the Minister, for ...; Lord Bach | 676 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. The amendment r...; Earl Peel | 676 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 8: Line 11, at end insert— ““(aa) enab...; Lord Bach | 676 c36 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7:"Page 5, line 16, at end insert—" ““(3A) Where a right of common to which ...; Earl Peel | 676 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. Government Amendment No. 7 has been passed but my Amen...; Lord Williams of Elvel | 676 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl but, as I understand it, the amendment to which he ...; Lord Williams of Elvel | 676 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Earl moves his amendment, we can discuss it.; Lord Bach | 676 c37 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me. I think that my noble friend is wrong about this. ...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c26 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend Lord Greaves that the Government moved a considerab...; Lord Bach | 676 c24-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this interesting debate. It should...; Baroness Byford | 676 c23-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. I knew that I had not got it quite right. That is a...; Earl Peel | 676 c30-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I believe my noble friend knows that I have great sympathy with the intentions behind his ...; Lord Jopling | 676 c29-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want very strongly to support what my noble friend Lord Inglewood has said in moving thi...; Lord Inglewood | 676 c27-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6:"Page 5, line 16, at end insert—" ““(d) any other person if— (i) the rig...; Lord Bach | 676 c26-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5:"Page 5, line 16, at end insert ““established for the land””" On Question, am...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c32-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, has done a tremendous amount of work on Amendm...; Lord Bach | 676 c32 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am getting up out of turn to say that the Government think that we may have a way throug...; Lord Chorley | 676 c32 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find myself instinctively drawn to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Inglew...; Lord Bach | 676 c49-51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment probes the effect of various possible characteristics of land on its ability...; Lord Greaves | 676 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it will come as no surprise to anyone that my basic instincts and prejudices are in favour...; Lord Bach | 676 c51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall write to the noble Baroness on that matter.; Baroness Byford | 676 c51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that full reply to a complex question. I shall read what...; Baroness Byford | 676 c46-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15:"Page 8, line 28, at end insert—" ““(3A) In considering any application u...; Lord Bach | 676 c46 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 12 to 14:"Page 8, line 17, leave out from first ““of”” to ““have”” in line 18 ...; Lord Bach | 676 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16:"Page 8, line 29, leave out subsection (4) and insert—" (4) In determinin...; Baroness Byford | 676 c51 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister because it seems to me that two different departments will c...; Lord Greaves | 676 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 20:"Page 9, line 12, at end insert—" ““(e) the extent to which the replaceme...; Lord Bach | 676 c52 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 19:"Page 8, line 31, at end insert—" ““(7) The owner of any land may apply t...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 8, line 15, at end insert—" ““( ) An application under this secti...; Lord Greaves | 676 c38 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 9: Lin...; Earl Peel | 676 c38 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister. I shall beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Ame...; Lord Bach | 676 c38 (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords, I can give the noble Earl that assurance.; Earl Peel | 676 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall move it, as I did last time. Perhaps I could finish. I do not want to prolong the ...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c46 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank Minister for being so detailed. We weigh all his words with great care, because th...; Lord Bach | 676 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. I know the noble Duke, the Duke of Montros...; Lord Greaves | 676 c43-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that long explanation on important issues that took up quite a lo...; Lord Bach | 676 c39-43 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may speak early in this particular debate for exactly that reason. Amendment No....; Lord Greaves | 676 c39 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have an amendment in this group which is an amendment to a government amendment and I wo...; Baroness Byford | 676 c11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for moving the amendment. We had a good debate about ...; Lord Bach | 676 c11-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I respond to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, I point out that the Gov...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c9-11 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1:"After Clause 4, insert the following new clause—" ““COMMONS INSPECTORS (1) ...; Baroness Byford | 676 c23 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting group of amendments and, like my noble friend Lord Jopling, I have great symp...; Lord Jopling | 676 c23 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is High Yewdale.; Earl of Caithness | 676 c22 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, on Amendment No. 4. I made clear in Committee that ...; Lord Jopling | 676 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I spoke on this issue in Committee. Like my noble friend Lord Caithness, I have great symp...; Lord Greaves | 676 c19-21 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have an amendment in this group. Before I speak to it I should like to thank the Governm...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment No. 10, which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livsey, is a...; Earl of Caithness | 676 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may seek clarification at this stage. My noble friend Lord Peel has just spoken ...; Lord Bach | 676 c17-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful as that situation will arise with one or two other groups with which we will...; Lord Brabazon of Tara | 676 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendm...; Earl Peel | 676 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I see that my Amendment No. 8 has been grouped with this one, so perhaps I may speak to it...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c16-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4:"Page 5, line 13, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b)." The noble Lord said: My ...; Lord Williams of Elvel | 676 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the noble Lord reflect on the procedures on Report? My noble friend said that he will...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says, but I do not think that it does any harm to re-emphasise ...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c15-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 3, line 13, at end insert—" ““( ) A right of common cannot at any ...; Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 676 c16 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 3, line 15, leave out ““or come into being”” and insert ““in any other w...; Countess of Mar | 676 c14 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but this is Report and before he sits down, I woul...; Lord Jopling | 676 c14-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise. As I have felt so cross about what has happened since 1965, I was perhaps rat...; Lord Bach | 676 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord has had a long time to get cross, 40 years on. Of course we will think abou...; Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 676 c15 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, very much for her support, and the noble Lord, Lo...; Lord Jopling | 676 c14 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid to say that a shudder went through my mind when I heard the noble Lord, Lord B...; Lord Bach | 676 c14 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I understand it, we will be consulting on this issue when the Bill becomes an Act of Pa...; Baroness Byford | 676 c14 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that I heard the noble Lord correctly when he said that the new directions are goi...; Duke of Montrose | 676 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for considering our suggestions in Grand Committee, for...; Lord Greaves | 676 c67 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for putting the matter on the record. On that basis, I ...; Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 676 c75 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to return briefly to a subject that I raised in Committee. I was not happy with the...; Lord Greaves | 676 c62 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not suppose that I am only the person to have had a briefing from the RSPB about the ...; Lord Bach | 676 c66 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be appropriate for me to write to the noble Baroness on that point.
Subjects: Access Applications Agriculture Arbitration Buildings Common land Countryside Council for Wales Housing Land Governing bodies Land use Grazing land Ownership Powers Membership Public appointments Management Registration Sales Time limits Sites of special scientific interest Commons Commissioners Commons councils Natural England Village greens
Legislation: Commons Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link: View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk

Commons Bill [HL]

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