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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 17 October 2005, in the House of Lords.

Road Safety Bill [HL]

Road Safety Bill (HL). Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 21 to 26 agreed to. Clauses 27 and 28 agreed to as amended.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
674 c598-668 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Transport
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper HDEP 2005/552
Wednesday, 16 November 2005
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Earl Attlee | 674 c653 (Link to this contribution) I am very surprised to be shot down in flames on this amendment. I had hoped to have a little suppor...
Earl of Dundee | 674 c653-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 117:"After Clause 25, insert the following new clause—"    ““RESTRICTIONS ON N...
Show all contributions (141)
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 674 c655 (Link to this contribution) I have a lot of sympathy with my noble friend’s amendment. I remember a few years ago when we were d...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c655-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendment No. 120 which is in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Par...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 120 in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is grouped with Amendment No...
Earl Attlee | 674 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 116:"Page 34, line 33, at end insert—" ““(e)   after paragraph (c) insert— ““(...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c652-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has typically hit the nail right on the head. That is ou...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c652 (Link to this contribution) This is an extraordinary amendment. Surely you cannot pass your test unless you are able to drive. I...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c653 (Link to this contribution) I have given an indication that we have it in mind to look at the way in which we will improve those...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 674 c653 (Link to this contribution) How are the Government going to raise the standard of driving instructors?
Earl of Dundee | 674 c660 (Link to this contribution) I thank members of the Committee for their remarks as much as I thank the Minister, although I am so...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) This clause amends Section 36 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act by substituting a new version of the...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 674 c660 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness that I am mindful of the fact that the most northerly piece ...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 674 c660 (Link to this contribution) We all recognise that learner drivers cannot drive on motorways. As the noble Earl mentioned, some p...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 674 c657 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 120 reminds us of the special legislative provisions in Northern Ireland. I believe th...
Lord Berkeley | 674 c657 (Link to this contribution) I support the principle of the amendments, although I am not sure that any of them is totally right....
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) I shall not move Amendment No. 120 which is grouped with that of my noble friend Lord Dundee. The Mi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) I accept the truth of that position. If the argument is that learner drivers should have all sorts o...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c658 (Link to this contribution) I forbear to challenge the Minister, but the motorways are safest because there are no pedestrians o...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Members of the Committee for the careful way in which they have presented their ame...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 120A:"Page 37, line 15, leave out ““Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Off...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) I should like to say from the outset that we are deeply suspicious of Clauses 28 and 29. We will dis...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c665 (Link to this contribution) I support most of what the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, said. This is possibly a sort of stalking ...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c662 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness’s knowledge is quite right, although she arrived at it anecdotally. There was an ...
Viscount Ullswater | 674 c663 (Link to this contribution) The Marshalled List has erred, so we move to Amendment No. 120A.
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c663 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 119:"Page 36, line 10, at end insert—" ““(4)   In section 195 of that Act (pro...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c662 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 118:"Page 35, line 45, at end insert—" ““(   )   In section 89 of the Road Tra...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c662 (Link to this contribution) I accept the Minister’s answer. Perhaps the provision should have referred to retesting, which would...
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting | 674 c668 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c668 (Link to this contribution) I assume that that was the noble Lord’s summing up. Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c668 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may go a little further because as yet the Minister has not come back on the point I made....
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c668 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has merely reinforced his earlier point to which I was not able to respond particular...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c667-8 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister realise that there will be a great deal of speculation about the new driving licen...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c667 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is being as helpful as ever. He has drawn attention to the fact that the noble Lord,...
Viscount Simon | 674 c667 (Link to this contribution) I have a serious, somewhat searching question for my noble friend. It is not intended to be frivolou...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c651 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. I have gathered information on this matter and I note that we...
Earl Attlee | 674 c651 (Link to this contribution) I am rather disappointed with the Minister’s response to my amendment. While I agree with most of wh...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c649-51 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all contributors to this debate, which is a constructive attempt to improve the dri...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 674 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise as one of those who mentioned at Second Reading the views of the Red Cross and its support fo...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c648 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting series of amendments, but I have grave reservations about them. The point mad...
Earl Attlee | 674 c646-8 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment No. 114 in this group. These are extremely important amendments. I am gratef...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c645-6 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, has described the situation well. I will...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 674 c646 (Link to this contribution) My name is added to Amendments Nos. 113 and 115, which I strongly support. For years, I have felt th...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c643 (Link to this contribution) We have had another interesting debate. We are having quite a lot of good debates on the Bill tonigh...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c643-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 113:"Page 34, line 7, at end insert—" ““(   )   In subsection (1) (tests of co...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c643 (Link to this contribution) I shall be happy to write to the noble Earl.
Earl Attlee | 674 c643 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s extremely helpful explanations. I accept that we are only starting ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c642-3 (Link to this contribution) I cannot answer any of those points in detail. I used Inverness merely as an illustration; I was not...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c639 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for the clear way in which they spoke to their amendments on training c...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c638-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at an earlier stage, when we discussed penalty points for speeding, the noble Lord, Lord B...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c640-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, too. We will continue to work together towards that common objective. I am a...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c640 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy to work with the Government on a better amendment for it.
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c639-40 (Link to this contribution) We are eager to make the courts’ position as credible as possible if they make such an offer. We fea...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c639 (Link to this contribution) The Minister used the very useful phrase ““work towards””. Plenty of legislation includes timetables...
Earl Attlee | 674 c636 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support of my noble and learned friend. Unfortunately, I think that the Minist...
Earl of Dundee | 674 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 106 is in the group. It seeks to add to the requirements for those taking a driver ...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c636-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103:"Page 25, line 7, leave out ““seven”” and insert ““three””" The noble Lord ...
Lord Berkeley | 674 c634 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. It is an excellent idea. One can think of it as no different from any other...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c633-4 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Attlee in what appears to be a very timely and valuable initiative. W...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) I want to assure my noble friend Lord Berkeley that there are plenty of wonderful ideas that I am ab...
Viscount Simon | 674 c634 (Link to this contribution) I may be totally wrong, but I have a vague recollection that there are five retraining centres in ex...
Earl Attlee | 674 c630-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 102:"Before Clause 23, insert the following new clause—"    ““REQUIREMENT FOR ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) I emphasise that checks will be in place to ensure that vehicles on the road are insured. The checki...
Earl Attlee | 674 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am not confident that the Minister has answered my point. I am concerned that it is currently poss...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for all contributions to the debate. They recognise that the Government are intent on ...
Viscount Simon | 674 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am tickled pink by what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has just said. Removal to a pound almost im...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c628-9 (Link to this contribution) I very much welcome the amendment, but it has some weaknesses. When I was out with the police 10 day...
Earl Attlee | 674 c628 (Link to this contribution) I emphasise that my amendment builds on the Minister’s amendment; it does not replace it. I hope tha...
Earl Attlee | 674 c627 (Link to this contribution) I tabled Amendment No. 169A, which is in the group. I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation of ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c621-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 100A:"After Clause 22, insert the following new clause—"    ““OFFENCE OF KEEPI...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c621 (Link to this contribution) Without wishing to bring this one to an end, we have had a very interesting debate. I said right at ...
Earl Attlee | 674 c619 (Link to this contribution) Surely in the circumstances that the Minister described the magistrates would award six points?
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c619 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for coming in again, but the Minister makes a point that it is in a case of obvious and ...
Viscount Goschen | 674 c619 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure whether the Minister has finished his remarks, but could he answer the point rai...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) We are entering into other areas of law, but the noble Lord will recognise that of course we have de...
Viscount Goschen | 674 c620 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes a fine point, but it is not the one I raised. What if the person who declines t...
Viscount Simon | 674 c620 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I can help my noble friend. It is something that I have no knowledge of at all, but it m...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c620 (Link to this contribution) When I was a magistrate we gave people penalty points even if they did not have a licence. Those poi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c620-1 (Link to this contribution) That is so and that is an obvious situation. You cannot penalise by penalty points those who never i...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise in this case to be a bit cautionary. A problem with discretion is that, when cases ...
Lord Lyell | 674 c616 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene before my noble friend. Indeed, my noble kinsman was, or is, learned, but wh...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) Again, it has been a debate of some complexity. First, let me reassure the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, o...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c617 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I had not intended to make exactly that point; it is complex. Could t...
Earl Attlee | 674 c616 (Link to this contribution) I regret that I have identified another difficulty with having a mandatory six points. Let us suppos...
Viscount Simon | 674 c616 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Earl fight like mad if he already had nine points on his licence?
Earl Attlee | 674 c618 (Link to this contribution) In the Minister’s reply, he suggested that the problem was people who are misleading or lying to the...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the strength of that last point, but that would be a different legal proceeding indeed, ...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) On that last point, when I used to sit as a magistrate, I understood that where no reply was receive...
Viscount Simon | 674 c618 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, has drawn attention to the innocent victim. As t...
Earl Attlee | 674 c612 (Link to this contribution) I draw the Minister’s attention to the Highway Code when he reflects on the matter. If the HighwayCo...
Viscount Simon | 674 c614 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suspect that some of the vehicles that the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, refers to are ...
Earl Attlee | 674 c614 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Hanningfield and take a contrary view. Some discret...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c614-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister clarify what is actually involved in committing this offence? There seem...
Lord Monson | 674 c612 (Link to this contribution) If at the moment there is no distinction in law between being in charge of a vehicle and driving a v...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may respond briefly to that point before the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, speaks to ...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c613 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate. Generally, there seems to be a consensus in support of the thrust...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c613-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 100:"Page 24, line 38, leave out ““““6”””” and insert ““““3 to 6””””" The noble...
Viscount Goschen | 674 c615 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I ask the Minister what sanction is applicable in the case where the registered owner of a...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c610 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will reflect on this pointbefore Report, on the basis that one is looking at th...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 674 c610 (Link to this contribution) Listening to the debate so far causes me to ask the Minister whether at present the legislation is s...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c609 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the Minister is saying. But, unfortunately, we live in a country in which at least...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will allow me to intervene also, I would like to know more about these cars that sto...
Earl Attlee | 674 c608 (Link to this contribution) It may help the noble Lord if I point out that I believe that if you are near the car with the keys ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for clearing up that matter. He is absolutely right. T...
Lord Berkeley | 674 c608 (Link to this contribution) I would never expect anyone to be given a fixed penalty for using any type of mobile phone if the ca...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c608 (Link to this contribution) In answering the points that have been raised both by the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, and other n...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c612 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, addresses those comments, I should say that I do not think...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c610-2 (Link to this contribution) First, I attest the obvious—that I am no lawyer, and therefore these questions leave me gasping for ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c603-5 (Link to this contribution) In response to the last point made by my noble friend, while I may know RoSPA as well as she does, I...
Earl Attlee | 674 c605 (Link to this contribution) I am a little confused. Did the Minister say that 50,000 fixed penalties were issued against cyclist...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) I have spread confusion and I apologise to the noble Earl. The 50,000 fixed penalties to which I ref...
Lord Bradshaw | 674 c602 (Link to this contribution) I back up what the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, said. I fear that the reason people use hands-free eq...
Viscount Simon | 674 c601-2 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, just said. He stated that using a han...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 674 c603 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that I am the president of RoSPA. I rise to support all that has been said by...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c600-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 93:"Page 23, line 33, after ““vehicle”” insert ““or pedal cycle””" The noble Lo...
Earl Attlee | 674 c600 (Link to this contribution) I go around your Lordships’ House and when people ask me whether I have had a good summer, I say, ““...
Earl Attlee | 674 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend, but the amendment does not go far enough. He describes the problem of bei...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c607 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 99:"Page 23, line 42, at end insert ““except in circumstances where a motor vehi...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c607 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support this amendment. It makes complete sense. People often need to call someone urgent...
Lord Hanningfield | 674 c606-7 (Link to this contribution) I am also pleased to hear that someone has actually been arrested on a cycle because it helps the Mi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) One can always look to help from one’s own Back Benches even in the direst extremes. I can now asser...
Lord Hunt of Chesterton | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) It seems as though not many people have been arrested on a bicycle—I have been and have appeared in ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for assisting in drafting the department’s reply to the noble Earl,...
Lord Berkeley | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) I will give my noble friend an opportunity to consider his reply before he decides to write. Would h...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I do not have the data that the noble Earl asks for with regard to cyclists. I will w...
Earl Attlee | 674 c606 (Link to this contribution) I know that the Minister cannot say how many of the penalties were issued to pedal cyclists for usin...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c598 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Earl Attlee | 674 c598-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 92:"After Clause 20, insert the following new clause—"    ““OFFENCE WHERE REGU...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the constructive work that the noble Earl has put into this amendment. We understa...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c665-7 (Link to this contribution) The surrender of the old-form driving licences, which we propose, is nothing to do with Europe. It i...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 674 c642 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way. He was good enough to mention my nodding agreement to issues ar...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 674 c636 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister, but I think that the answer he has given to the Committee has mi...
Viscount Simon | 674 c605 (Link to this contribution) I was delighted to hear what my noble friend said. He said that 50,000 fixed-penalty notices have be...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 674 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand the nature of the noble Lord’s query. The new definition in Clause 26 will enable the S...
Lord Monson | 674 c615 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as one of the many non-lawyers here tonight, I ask the Minister whether it is still the ca...
Lord Berkeley | 674 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what my noble friend Lord Simon said about hands-free phones, in which he was supported...
Earl Attlee | 674 c638 (Link to this contribution) I have Amendments No. 105, 109 and 111 in the group. Turning first to Amendments Nos. 105 and 109, N...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 674 c628 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 137 is not part of this group, but it should be because it is on exactly the same s...
Subjects
Dangerous driving Fixed penalties Disqualification Driving instruction Identification Driving tests Motor vehicles Mobile phones Safety Roads Testing Road traffic offences Driving licences Motor insurance
Legislation
Road Safety Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
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