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Debate on bill and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 15 December 2005, in the House of Lords.

Compensation Bill [HL]

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
676 c183-244GC 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Lucas | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 10:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—" ““(  ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that Members of the Committee will now understand that this amendment seeks to produce an acc...
Show all contributions (107)
Viscount Eccles | 676 c236-7GC (Link to this contribution) I say to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that the problem is that Clause 1 does not attempt to do any o...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c202-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 1, line 8, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert—" ““(a)   preve...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) Not to a non-lawyer, you have to understand. The House of Lords made the point that there was no jus...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful development triggered by my noble friend Lord Lucas. If I recall the case to ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) That was a tour de force by the Minister, who cited case after case. I was left with the clear impre...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c183-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1:"Page 1, line 4, after ““negligence”” insert ““or breach of statutory duty””" ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c243-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry I did not address that part effectively. On children, for instance, a child is necessaril...
Lord Lucas | 676 c240-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14:"After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—" ““EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution) Of course, although I am not entirely convinced that my letter persuaded him not to move it. It was ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I see my noble friend Lord Greenway’s name. Although the amendment is not being moved, could I have ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c226GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment looks extremely sensible. If someone willingly accepts a risk, that is it. He or she ...
Lord Lucas | 676 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 8:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert ““, or" ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5:"Page 1, line 8, leave out ““desirable”” and insert ““legitimate sporting, rec...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl for moving the amendment. It goes quite a long way to capturing what...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I said earlier that I sit at his feet in terms of his knowledge and...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c231GC (Link to this contribution) No, I am not going to correct the noble Lord. I am responsible for the Law Commission in my departme...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c231-3GC (Link to this contribution) As I said in the debate on one of the earlier amendments, the law has got it about right. I am not s...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c233-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support in the idea of referring this matter to the Law...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c237-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the chance to go through once more some of the issues that are important to us in ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. It is apparent, for instance from what the noble Viscount, Lord Eccle...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c226-7GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord says, this raises an interesting point. I hope he will not mind if I say that if t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c230GC (Link to this contribution) That is a factor that the courts would and do take into account in individual cases, but its relevan...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c230GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, there is an extremely serious point in the second half of the amend...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 676 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that this is Grand Committee and we do not take votes, but for the record I have to say...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend really should explain how on earth falling out of a tree can come under the heading ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution) In Amendment No. 13, my noble friend Lord Hunt made a brave attempt to elucidate the phrase ““desira...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c207-9GC (Link to this contribution) I ought perhaps to explain to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, that I was not really meaning to ...
Viscount Eccles | 676 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I have got the Minister’s reply clear. It has been said that the clause will not am...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c201GC (Link to this contribution) The bit I do not understand in the Minister’s reply is that if it ““shall”” be taken into account an...
Lord Skelmersdale | 676 c200GC (Link to this contribution) Should it not always be the case that personal responsibility, when an accident happens and a compen...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I am in complete agreement with my noble friends Lord Skelmersdale, Lord Lucas, Lord Eccles and Lord...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) I can assure the Committee that the noble Baroness has considered all sorts of things in the course ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c216GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister responds, perhaps I can recap. The noble Lord has made a very important point. I...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution) Not only for the benefit of the noble Baroness, I think.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c218GC (Link to this contribution) That was drummed into me during the time that I spent at French universities. We need to think about...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord about Bolton v Stone. A woman who lived near the cricket ground was hit ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c212GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the Minister has yet given us the name, title or reference of that particular cas...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) I intended to do so. I was merely breaking up the way I dealt with the cases so that I started by gi...
Lord Lucas | 676 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) I wanted to take the chance of the first amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to lay out...
Lord Chorley | 676 c187GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to make a Second Reading speech either, although I was not able to take part in the Se...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, although I am always nervous when we stray into discussing other gr...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c194GC (Link to this contribution) That is not my understanding of how it would work. The advice I have been given is that it would not...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c193GC (Link to this contribution) It worries me that if the Minister, with an entire department behind her, cannot work out which stat...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c189GC (Link to this contribution) It might be helpful if I make a short intervention to explain my outlook on the amendments in Part 1...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Tuesday next.
Lord Lucas | 676 c242-3GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that entirely answers the first part. I tabled the amendment in the main to listen to the noble...
Lord Lucas | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. We are down to subsection (2) which does not involve c...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c225-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—" ““(   )   In considering whether an activ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is phraseology that I have learnt. I do not dispute what the noble Lord seeks to do. That is an...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c223GC (Link to this contribution) But the noble Baroness will understand that this is a disjunctive addition. Therefore, it does not a...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert ““, or" (   )   produce consequences that th...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to accept the Minister’s offer to refer the matter to the Law Commission, since we hav...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c235-6GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to this question, because I think it is essential that the clause stand part. I have t...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 12:"Page 1, line 11, at end insert—" ““(   )   In considering whether an activ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) It will not surprise anyone to hear that my familiarity with the Occupiers’ Liability Act 1984 is li...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) I refuse to eat the apple that has just been passed to me. On the back of the last debate, it is im...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution) It covers the planting of the tree in the first place and the type of tree.
Lord Lucas | 676 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I see a great deal of attraction in the phrase ““public benefit”” in that it is understood; I find i...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution) The key question arising from this debate is: is it a desirable activity to introduce Clause 1? I am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution) An aide mémoire is an interesting description. I am trying to say that the purpose of Clause 1 is to...
Lord Lucas | 676 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution) Does not the clause change the law? Perhaps I misunderstand how it works, but I believe that where t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c199-200GC (Link to this contribution) I am always interested in ““may”” to ““shall”” debates, because in my ministerial experience they ar...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c199GC (Link to this contribution) If I had been a bit more organised a couple of days ago I would have added my name to all the amendm...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c217GC (Link to this contribution) This is called a no-win situation in any place other than your Lordships’ House. The courts make val...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c217GC (Link to this contribution) Removing the concept of desirability would be absolutely disastrous. The whole point behind the Toml...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c211-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord in his second bite of the cherry—not the tree. Noble Lords will be t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I am not sure whether ““public benefit”” would capture that; it might, but I am not sur...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c213-4GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that we are now moving so far from the original motivation for introducing Clause 1, ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c213GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will reflect for a moment, she will see that the amendment refers to public benefit ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to say a few words in the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I must apologise for mi...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c194-6GC (Link to this contribution) We are reaching an important part of the discussion on the Bill. I am still confused by one or two o...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c193-4GC (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely not what I said. I said that if one puts statutory duty into this clause, it requ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c189-93GC (Link to this contribution) I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his kind words at the beginning of the debate and...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that Dubai is dangerous. Not all the Middle East is dangerous. That is almost like Am...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c244GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Tuesday at 2 pm.
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239-40GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps small parts of the Middle East are not dangerous, but far too much of it is. I was very plea...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c241-2GC (Link to this contribution) One of the great joys of being a Minister is that sometimes you get an amendment where you can talk ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c241GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the amendment. Personally, I would love to see a law of common sense that says that som...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution) No offence was taken whatever. I count it as a great honour.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c224GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for that. I am slightly nervous about it because I have been at pains to stress t...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness has just said. I do not think the words are ideal, par...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c219GC (Link to this contribution) Faced with that challenge, I can do no better than beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c224GC (Link to this contribution) It would be very much up to one party—in this case the defendant—to persuade the court that there wo...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c239GC (Link to this contribution) There may have been other reasons for not travelling to the Middle East.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c227GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a very helpful debate. I am grateful to the Minister for her response and I beg leave ...
Earl of Erroll | 676 c229GC (Link to this contribution) I have not thought about any of the implications for the Occupiers’ Liability Act and things like th...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a very helpful opportunity to consider the position of children. I take the point made...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I want to respond to a couple of points that have been made before the Minister replies. First, I as...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c210GC (Link to this contribution) Does this apply to Cupressus leylandii?
Lord Goodhart | 676 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) The picture of the cow and the fat lawyer, to which the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, referred, was for m...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2:"Page 1, line 4, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””" The noble Lord said:...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 676 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution) Many would contend that such planting is not environmental improvement, but I think that those who p...
Lord Lucas | 676 c216GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend withdraws the amendment, and on the basis of what has been said, I wonder whe...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution) I know the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, would rather not have Clause 1 because he has made that clear....
Lord Elton | 676 c183GC (Link to this contribution) There are two things of which I am required to remind the Committee. One is that Members of the Comm...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c194GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1 requires the court to determine,"““whether the defendant should have taken particular steps...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 676 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Because Clause 1 is, in a sense, dealing with that perception, it draws attention to these i...
Lord Chorley | 676 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to prolong the discussion. I agree very much with the noble Baroness—we do not want to...
Subjects
Complaints Children Compensation Courts Accidents Common law Liability Insurance Extracurricular activities Personal injury Negligence Outdoor education Schools Training Regulation Voluntary work Risk assessment Small claims
Legislation
Compensation Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk