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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 15 July 2008, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. The answering member was Lord Kingsland.

Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Bill

Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Bill. Lords Committee stage. Clauses 1 to 15 agreed to, with clause 3 agreed to as amended. Bill reported with amendments. Standing Order 47 having been dispensed with, the report was received. Bill read a third time and passed. Bill returned to the Commons with amendments.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
703 c1100-58 
Session
2007-08
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Third reading
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Thomas of Gresford, for giving me this op...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1101 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Front Bench has said that we will proceed straight away to the Report and Third Readin...
Show all contributions (137)
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1103 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that discussions now take place with the usual channels. I am sure it will then ...
Lord King of Bridgwater | 703 c1103 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one recognises that there are occasions over the years when emergency legislation is requi...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1103 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot give an exact audit trail for when a particular instruction was given. As a senio...
Lord Tebbit | 703 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can well understand how difficult it would be to define the precise moment when Minister...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1102 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for his comments. I accept that having ...
Lord Strathclyde | 703 c1102 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is this not a very sorry tale? It has one benefit in that it demonstrates how wise we were...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved, Th...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not intend to oppose the Committee stage of the Bill, or to object to its remaining s...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 703 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble and learned Baroness. At this stage, I cannot ask for more. I beg le...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1108 (Link to this contribution) I would be very happy to do that. I said during the previous debate—and I am very happy to repeat it...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1111 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that the screening of a witness from the defence counsel might be fair in o...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting discussion. I say to my noble friend that I listened with great care to...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1110 (Link to this contribution) In her letter to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, sugg...
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 2, page 2, line 13, at end insert— ““( ) the legal representative...
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1112 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 3, page 2, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) Where an application is ...
Lord Boston of Faversham | 703 c1112 (Link to this contribution) In calling Amendment No. 2, in view of the groupings I must point out to the Committee at this early...
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1111-2 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the comity goes straightaway. On the one hand, my noble friend seems to be saying that i...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 703 c1103-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. A1: A1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out ““abolished”” and insert ““are to ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I also support my noble and learned friend’s amendment. There are many statutory rules, many texts c...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 703 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble and learned friend. I have one point of principle and one of practicality. The po...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1106 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene on this amendment, but surely there is a distinction between the pri...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1106 (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell. The mistake is to refer to commo...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank both the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Mor...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 703 c1106-7 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with the views expressed by each and every noble and learned Lord wh...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1108 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble and learned Lord. If there is one thing that we need now it is clarity. Many ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Baroness agree that, once the principle is established, the worst solutio...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 703 c1108 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General and to all who have taken part...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1120 (Link to this contribution) The Criminal Procedure Rules now deal with rules in relation to all courts, so I am sure that these ...
Lord Richard | 703 c1120 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble and learned friend could help me. What amendment are we supposed to be discussing? ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1118 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for testing the noble and learned Baroness’s legendary patience once more. Following on ...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 703 c1118-9 (Link to this contribution) I have a point to make that is quite apposite to the matter before the House. The Treasury Solicitor...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1119 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, for bringing that to our attention, and I put on record...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1119-20 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry again to tax the Committee’s patience, but we are replacing the flexible common law judic...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1117 (Link to this contribution) We will turn to deal with the issue of special independent counsel in due course. The last time that...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1117-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Attorney-General. As she knows, at Second Reading I gave pretty broad support, ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1118 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Baroness replies, may I add that the solution put forward at the moment...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1117 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not. I was simply underlining why they cannot be treated exactly the same. The duty that ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1116-7 (Link to this contribution) I respectfully agree with the noble Lord, but I wanted to make sure that I was not presumptuously di...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1117 (Link to this contribution) The fact that the defendant does not have a similar duty to the prosecution has never been the basis...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Mallalieu for tabling the amendment. She has highlighted a number of is...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1116 (Link to this contribution) I indicated that in the light of the undertaking by the Government to bring forward rules of procedu...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1114-5 (Link to this contribution) If the principle that we discussed in debating the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lye...
Lord Marlesford | 703 c1115 (Link to this contribution) I am worried about the timing of the rules, which are clearly important. Will they be available imme...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1113 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a question, as he has raised the issue that we shall come to later....
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1114 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, for not making a more specific reference to his amendmen...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1112-3 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness referred to my amendment in this group, I feel compelled to say something abou...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I take very much to heart my noble friend’s stricture. We are discussing Amendment No. 2A, on which,...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1135 (Link to this contribution) Everything that the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has said is common sense. I expect to hear an as...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I have had the benefit of listening to the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and I have nothing to add...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1133 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister. I find the Government overcautious in some parts of the Bill and...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 4, page 3, line 2, after ““measures”” insert ““, whether on their...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) Surely not. The most important matter that I am seeking to establish in this group of amendments is ...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1131 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support either Amendment No. 6 or Amendment No. 7A. I shall not enter into any comparativ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1131-3 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept that the amendments spoken to by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Kingsland,...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1133 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the response of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Our view is simply that Clause 4(3...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) We differ on that. I give that introduction as this is an attempt to improve the Bill. Clause 4(6) s...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 6 and 7, which stand in my name. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, wa...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1129-30 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4E: 4E: Clause 4, page 2, line 39, leave out ““safety of the witness or anothe...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I quite understand. The noble and learned Lord may have pointed out a valid drafting point. I always...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1128-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand the noble Viscount’s concerns. I do not think that the amendment proposed by the noble ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble and learned Baroness for the...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1128 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly puzzled by this amendment. I fully accept that if the court has a reason to believe th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1125-6 (Link to this contribution) We believe that at the moment, as a result of H and C and the current framework, it is possible—the ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, will do, but I shall seek the opinion of the Comm...
Lord Richard | 703 c1126 (Link to this contribution) Not for the first time in my political life, I am absolutely bemused by the attitude of the Liberal ...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 703 c1126 (Link to this contribution) While I have every sympathy with the amendment, which has been drafted very carefully by the noble L...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1127 (Link to this contribution) In the debate on this group of amendments, I have become something of an innocent bystander—at least...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1127 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 4C: 4C: Clause 3, page 2, line 32, at end ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1127-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4D: 4D: Clause 4, page 2, line 36, leave out ““C”” and insert ““D”” The noble...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1125 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General has not explained what is wrong with Amendment N...
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1124 (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has just said. We should not lose sight of the f...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1121 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2A: 2A: Clause 3, page 2, line 26, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ““(1A)...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1121 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4A: 4A: Clause 3, page 2, line 32, at end insert— ““( ) Nothing in this sectio...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1120 (Link to this contribution) I just hope that we will not have to discuss those matters again.
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1120-1 (Link to this contribution) It is scarcely surprising that we have strayed from the grouping. It is necessary to grasp at straws...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 9. I think that I have already fully outlined the principles I wish t...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 703 c1123-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. The basic sacrosanct principle ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1121-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4B: 4B: Clause 3, page 2, line 32, at end insert— ““( ) For the purposes of co...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 703 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I asked whether the Government, in failing to accept that ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1140 (Link to this contribution) No, that would not be a good reason, and I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that that is not t...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for tabling the amendments. Clearly, this is a very...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1140-1 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his response, and to other noble Lords who have participated ...
Lord Bach | 703 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) The Committee will be grateful to the noble Viscount for his amendments, which are concerned with wh...
Lord Bach | 703 c1136 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting when the noble Viscount has only just started his reply, but when I sai...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1136 (Link to this contribution) Now that the Minister has been reasonably discourteous and made himself plain, it is a great deal be...
Lord Bach | 703 c1137 (Link to this contribution) We will want to look very carefully at the amendments that have been moved here before we come to th...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1137 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness and to the Minister, but although the Minister suggested—I do no...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1137-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7E: 7E: Clause 5, page 3, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) the principle that wit...
Lord Richard | 703 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, with the greatest attention, as I always do when he is...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I am in total agreement with everything that the noble Lords, Lord Richard and Lord Kingsland, said....
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. In doing so, I express my grateful thanks to all...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1157 (Link to this contribution) That is very kind. I might take up that offer, provided that the noble Lord will pay for it. This i...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1156-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but it is not the Government who have rushed suddenly to put...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I do not follow the logic of that, I regret to say. What is lacking is any evidence on which the Gov...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1157 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord keeps talking about an extension. This is not an extension; it is there already.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1157 (Link to this contribution) Exactly—we and the Minister have not had time for careful consideration, yet he is clinging on to th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1157 (Link to this contribution) I have outlined already why we are dissatisfied with these provisions. I look forward to further dis...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1156 (Link to this contribution) Surely I would be damned if I did and damned if I did not. If I had said that there were hundreds of...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1156 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his assurances, but one registered case in a magistrates’ court an...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1155-6 (Link to this contribution) I was just about to turn to the noble and learned Lord. Although he was not able to speak at Second ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1155 (Link to this contribution) Surely that is the whole point. We need a little more time to consider how this would work in relati...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1154-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contribution to this, our final debate in Committee. It ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 703 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I share the opinion that has been expressed. Having had quite a lot of experience of magistrates’ co...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 703 c1154 (Link to this contribution) I support the Bill, but it is inappropriate that it should extend to the magistrates’ court. That is...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 703 c1154 (Link to this contribution) The arguments that have just been adduced seem overwhelming. I do not wish to delay for more than a ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1152-4 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. First, I must express my apologies for not having been able to be here on S...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1151-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 14: 14: Clause 12, page 6, line 24, leave out ““a magistrates’ court,”” The n...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I confess that I find that answer unsatisfactory. The defendant cannot know whether he had a fair tr...
Lord Bach | 703 c1151 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that we reject this amendment. We think it would change the basis on which the Court of ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1148-50 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my noble friend on his ingenuity in bringing this matter to the Committee’s attention...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 703 c1146-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: 11: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— ““Anonymity in rape c...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1150 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: 13: Clause 11, page 6, line 10, leave out ““the defendant did not receive ...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 703 c1150 (Link to this contribution) I am indebted to my noble friend. I do not want to detain the Committee, and on that basis I beg lea...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1145 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General for her assurance that guidance...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1145 (Link to this contribution) I commend the noble Lord on his elegantly short exposition in support of his amendment. Perhaps I ma...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I am much obliged to the noble and learned Baroness. I am pleased to hear her say that in this area ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I entirely accept that that was a very important amendment in another House; and, in the context of ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for those very constructive suggestions. Certainly, we will ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1141 (Link to this contribution) My point was that the amendment to Clause 5(2)(c) in another place should give the noble Lord the co...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10: 10: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— ““Code of practice (1...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for being so constructive. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment....
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1142 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause— ““Independent counsel (...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1101 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his protest at the late setting down of these...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 703 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I am puzzled by a small drafting point in the amendment. Presumably it should read ““Condition D is ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 703 c1126-7 (Link to this contribution) I was given an interesting rebuke by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and I understand the position fro...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 703 c1122 (Link to this contribution) In speaking to this amendment, perhaps I may speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 4C and 9. Ame...
Viscount Bledisloe | 703 c1136 (Link to this contribution) In conclusion, the Minister said, ““we are not sure”” that these amendments are necessary. He pointe...
Baroness Mallalieu | 703 c1136-7 (Link to this contribution) I am increasingly troubled about what we are doing in this Committee stage and I wonder whether the ...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1111 (Link to this contribution) Is not that the most powerful case for having the flexibility that is in the Bill, alongside the Cou...
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 703 c1133 (Link to this contribution) I do not doubt that those matters require careful consideration. I pray in aid the report of the JCH...
Lord Richard | 703 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to see that the noble Lord is a bit more emollient. Perhaps I can be as emollient as ...
Lord Kingsland | 703 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I completely accept that statement. Our contention—I say ““our”” because I assume that the noble Lor...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will know that there are two forms of guidance. One is the guidance of the Attorney-G...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 703 c1124-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their brevity, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for his telegrap...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Criminal proceedings Common law Intimidation Protection Property Magistrates' courts New Zealand Witnesses Trials
Legislation
Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Bill 2007-08
Link
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