---

Counter-Terrorism Bill

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

704 c338-62,377-410 

Session

2007-08

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Counter-Terrorism Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 65-EN also published.
Thursday, 12 June 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Terrorism Act 2000
Thursday, 20 July 2000
Public acts

Proceeding contributions

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c341 (Link to this contribution) It was said, of course, to try to spare the blushes of the noble Baroness in view of my real thought...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c342 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 1, page 2, line 8, after ““may,”” insert ““if he has reasonable g...

Show all contributions (142)

Baroness Hanham | 704 c342 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment for today. Amendment, by...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c342 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises a good point. I believe that there is such training, but I shall have to c...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c341-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Lord will survive. I thank the Minister for his reply. I am still not convi...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c343 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has read out something from the PACE code that goes beyond reasonable. If the PACE code...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c343 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that there are sufficient safeguards to stop police offic...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c342 (Link to this contribution) In support of my noble friend, who made some very good points, I want to draw the Minister's attenti...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c342 (Link to this contribution) I have one small question to fill my small brain with information. Is this procedure different from ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c343 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that, in carrying out their functions, police officers have to act reasonably and...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c343-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 14, leave out paragraph (a) The noble Baroness s...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c343 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this mini debate on an important issue....

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c344 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raised some interesting points. As was said, this is about information that could...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c344 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness’s amendment and can envisage all sorts of circumstances where it may be...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c344 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister to define ““they””. Is it the person who owns or has used the computer or any mem...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c344 (Link to this contribution) Is this not self-incrimination? It goes against all our traditions to put someone in prison for six ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 704 c345 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the provision mentions who may be required to provide information; it states tha...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c345 (Link to this contribution) To answer the noble Baroness first, it is the person being searched, the person who is using the equ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c345 (Link to this contribution) It is not intended to apply totally just to that person. If there is a lack of clarity on this point...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c340 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 2, line 8, after ““constable”” insert ““of at least the r...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c339 (Link to this contribution) It does to an extent and I am grateful to the noble Lord for responding in that way and to the noble...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) I am somewhat confused by this interesting amendment and have been trying to think about the practic...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c338-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Baroness sa...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c338 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved acc...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c339 (Link to this contribution) The power to remove documents can be used only during a search that has been carried out under terro...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c339 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that this amendment is probing; a number of other amendments will be in the same catego...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c341 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Harris has raised one of the issues that I was going to mention. I can understa...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c341 (Link to this contribution) The most exciting moment of my day has arrived: the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is bewildered. That enc...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c362 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will clarify a point that he made with regard to Amendment No. 9. He mentio...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c362 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Baroness misheard what I said.

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c358-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for these points. A couple of them are rather important. As regards the N...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c359 (Link to this contribution) I realise that the amendment was not entirely helpful to the Bill. On the other hand, there must be ...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c359-60 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: Clause 6, page 5, line 5, leave out subsection (3) The noble Baroness s...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c360-2 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness has spotted, this is a quite complicated matter. This might be a long answer, ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c357 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in what I think has been a very useful short d...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c358 (Link to this contribution) The amendment as tabled could remove an important safeguard with regard to the normal process of ass...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c358 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: 8: Clause 5, page 4, line 25, leave out subsection (1) The noble Baroness ...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 704 c356 (Link to this contribution) As I understand Clause 4, it deals only with the removal of a document under Clause 1(2) and not wit...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c356-7 (Link to this contribution) The Government understand their obligation to preserve the balance between the rights of citizens an...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 704 c355 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, at least in a probing capacity. It bears upon concern that we have already ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for suggesting a line of argument on this. I was n...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c354 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for responding in the way that he has. It is a little bit like living ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c354-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 4, page 3, line 43, at end insert ““, and ( ) state the reason th...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c353 (Link to this contribution) It is a long-established principle of search and seizure that police may only seize documents covere...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) I touched on this in my previous answer. I must make it clear that legal privileges are rightly ther...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, on this amendment. The Minister ha...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c352 (Link to this contribution) The way that the noble Baroness has described the situation is not correct. If a document clearly sh...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification. It would probably make this legislation rather better i...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c349 (Link to this contribution) Our debate over the past hour or so has opened up some of the tensions that will apply to the first ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing us to reflect on the whole of Clause 1. I again rai...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c350-1 (Link to this contribution) I have sympathy with a great deal of what both noble Baronesses have said. We have to be careful tha...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c351 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I make it clear that we are not trying to undermine this legisl...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c351 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: 6: Clause 3, page 2, line 44, at end insert— ““( ) Under subsection (2) it ...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c351 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. Clearly the catching up of legally privileged documents within such a searc...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c352 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that if, in a search, an officer—we are talking about a constable, not an inspector—c...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord has come up with a very good answer. Perhaps I may take this away and see...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c347 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy for what the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, said at the beginning of her ...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 704 c347 (Link to this contribution) Like many others, I found this a pretty puzzling subsection; but the noble Lord’s explanation certai...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 704 c346 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend’s opening remarks. It takes quite a bit of time...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord could come back on Report with a clever subsection so that people like me and...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely think that we should do that. I am always wary of saying the words ““simple sailor””, b...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) Am I right to say that basically this clause states that if we seize something illegally and it turn...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I would agree with the noble Earl; that is not what it says. We would not be sei...

Earl Ferrers | 704 c394-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will clarify something. I apologise for not having taken part in this debate pr...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c393-4 (Link to this contribution) Currently PACE makes no specific provision for individuals subject to control orders, so such person...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c394 (Link to this contribution) I again thank the Minister for his considered response, which is exactly what I expected. As we have...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c392 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support from the Conservative Benches. I thank the Minister for his response, ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) Clause 10 deals with the taking of fingerprints and non-intimate samples from those subject to contr...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c396-8 (Link to this contribution) The provisions on the retention and use of fingerprints and samples have three objectives: first, pu...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c395-6 (Link to this contribution) This is another section of the Bill that causes a certain queasiness. It is only right that the amen...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c395 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 21: 21: Clause 18, page 14, line 5, leave out ““(whether”” The noble Baroness...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c387 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, will be cheered to know that it sounds as though the...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in the debate. It is interesting that we say we should ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c389 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15: 15: Clause 10, page 7, line 5, after ““constable”” insert ““, with the aut...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c389-90 (Link to this contribution) The provisions in Clauses 10, 11 and 12 intend to regularise police powers across the UK to take rou...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c387 (Link to this contribution) I was not arguing for a national database with everyone on it, although there is a debate to be had ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c387 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that interjection. There may be some merit in it which needs looking at....

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c390-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 17: 17: Clause 10, page 7, line 22, leave out subsection (4) The noble Barone...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c390 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that position. If the clause was intended to regularise...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c392 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has now said several times that there is a need for a proper debate on this. Those of...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) This amendment was debated extensively in the other place and the Government’s position has not chan...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c382 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I can comment on that. I will have to go back to Hansard and look at what was di...

Lord Monson | 704 c385 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that the noble Lord has dealt pretty effectively with Amendment No. 13, but he has mad...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c385 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord help me a little on this? If someone is detained for up to 28 days, presumably th...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 704 c382 (Link to this contribution) We have previously had a number of Questions in this House about the freezing of assets, and such qu...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c382-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord that it is. I would have to take advice on what can be said about it. We...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c386 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord and I found ourselves in chokey together, our fingerprints would be taken. If the ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c386 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is quite right; that, in effect, is what we are saying: they will not be able to ask ...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c386 (Link to this contribution) How can someone whose fingerprints were taken covertly ask for them to be deleted? He probably does ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, the material will be kept unless the person asks for it to be destroyed, at whic...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c386-7 (Link to this contribution) I am worried that the more the Minister seeks to reassure us the less reassured I feel. He said that...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c362 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee stag...

Baroness Hamwee | 704 c377-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 13: 13: Before Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Report on fingerp...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. At the beginning of her introducti...

Lord Monson | 704 c380 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, has said, Clauses 10 to 18 seem to cover a very much wider field...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 704 c381 (Link to this contribution) I have been concerned at the tone of this debate. I apologise to the noble Baroness that I did not h...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c380-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being late on this. This fingerprint business is something about which I feel very s...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c381 (Link to this contribution) Let us be absolutely clear about it. Was there any debate during passage of that Act to say that it ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c381 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Committee for that input. It is clear that everyone in the Committee feels that this is ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c381 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to press the Minister on this, but ““security”” here means personal safety and so on, not...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c381 (Link to this contribution) I was not here for that debate. That legislation does, however, include security. We can look in Han...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c402 (Link to this contribution) This amendment is unnecessary. There is nothing in this clause or elsewhere which could be taken to ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c403-4 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for that explanation and for pointing out that our drafting was w...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c403 (Link to this contribution) The amendment states that, "““only information concerning persons under investigation may be disclos...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c403 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 26: 26: Clause 19, page 15, line 30, at end insert— ““( ) Under this section, ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c402 (Link to this contribution) Once again, I am very grateful to the Minister. It is important to have that in Hansard to clarify t...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c405 (Link to this contribution) No, the noble Baroness says, over there. Could we hear from them exactly what the attitude of the in...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 704 c405 (Link to this contribution) No.

Earl of Onslow | 704 c405 (Link to this contribution) My name is to this amendment. I agree completely with what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has said. Furt...

Lord Dubs | 704 c404 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 27: 27: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause— ““Disclosure and the...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c405 (Link to this contribution) I want to put on record, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill who is unable to be ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c398 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s detailed reply was a lot more reasonable, and sounded much better, than what is actua...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c399 (Link to this contribution) I think I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from. However, I do not think that the amend...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c400 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for his reply and to the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, ...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 704 c399-400 (Link to this contribution) I nearly intervened several times while listening to the discussion, particularly when I heard the p...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand what the noble Baroness is trying to achieve, but I oppose the amendment. The intellige...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c402 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his care in how he dealt with the amendment and for what he has ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c402 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 25: 25: Clause 19, page 15, line 30, at end insert— ““( ) Nothing in this sect...

Lord Brett | 704 c410 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord Dubs | 704 c410 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my noble friend’s explanation. It is 90 per cent okay—perhaps that is churlish of ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c408 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, I do not think that it would be appropriate to respond her...

Baroness Manningham-Buller | 704 c407-8 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lord, I believe that the members of the security and intelligence services, for whom ...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c407 (Link to this contribution) I find the noble Lord’s reasoning compelling; it seems to need to make complete sense. Those at Bagr...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to go down that route, and under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act it should not b...

Earl of Onslow | 704 c406 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may change his mind very rapidly from agreeing with us, seeing the Prime Minister and...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c405-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall answer the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, first. I am not aware of that work. Torture is discu...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c405 (Link to this contribution) I have one question. I understand that work is in hand with our allies against terrorism to prevent ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c409-10 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Dubs has shown me the error of my ways in getting people fully briefed before t...

Lord Dubs | 704 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 28: 28: Clause 20, page 15, line 42, at end insert ““, or (c) breaches— (i) th...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c345 (Link to this contribution) We have been able to dig at a little nugget here. The comments made by my noble and learned friend L...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) In answer to the Minister’s question, I, too, am satisfied with the purpose of the subsection. It is...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) This picks up the Chinese wall aspect that we discussed about whether information collected during a...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c340 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment. In fact, over the many years that I have been dealing with police ...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c362 (Link to this contribution) I shall have to read the Minister’s speech in Hansard. I am grateful to him for trying to untangle t...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c395 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the noble Earl has made that point. When we have our wider debate about DNA, it ...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c392 (Link to this contribution) I am not able to come up with a date. I will take away a remit to look at this and see whether there...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 704 c398 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 23: 23: Clause 19, page 15, line 4, at beginning insert ““At the request of th...

Lord Dubs | 704 c408 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all Members who have taken part in this short debate. I am aware that the noble Bar...

Lord West of Spithead | 704 c352 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baronesses have both raised an important point. We understand the need to strike an approp...

Baroness Hanham | 704 c345-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5: 5: Clause 1, page 2, line 19, leave out subsection (4) The noble Baroness ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 704 c400 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 24: 24: Clause 19, page 15, line 25, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and inse...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 704 c348 (Link to this contribution) Instead of what is set out in subsection (4), would it not be easier to draft something along the li...

Subjects

Disclosure of information Databases Codes of practice Crime prevention Administration of justice Arrests Assets Banks Fingerprints Evidence Intelligence services ICT Genetics Documents GCHQ National security Northern Ireland Police Powers Terrorism Training Right of search Torture Anti-terrorism control orders Freezing of assets

Legislation

Counter-terrorism Bill 2007-08

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk