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European Affairs

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that almost historic contribution; an agreement between the Liberal Democrats and me. If people were asked privately, the vast majority would probably say that there was no sense in this arrangement. I know that the Strasbourg authorities love the fact that it continues, and for obvious reasons; they bend over backwards to say that it must continue. If I remember rightly, the issue was raised in the treaty of Edinburgh; John Major was Prime Minister and the French were threatening to boycott everything if we pulled out of Strasbourg. Just as support is provided to ease the pain if an industry whose time has come is no longer in a location—the industry in this case is bureaucracy—I am sure that something could be done to ensure that Strasbourg is awarded one of the agencies. I am sure that the Council of Europe would love to expand into some of the properties that are available in the city, because it is always stretched for property. I am sure that something could be done to ensure that the loss of this arrangement did not affect Strasbourg too much, but I do not believe that this absurdity should continue simply in order to placate the Strasbourg authorities. I pay tribute to my friend the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) for what she said about Turkey. We know that Croatia is soon to join the European Union and we all cheer about that. I also look forward to the day when Turkey becomes a full member of the European Union, because I have no hang-ups about that happening when the Turks fulfil all the criteria. The other members of the European Union must be honest about their position. The right hon. Lady talked about Turkey's problems with human rights, and we know that those have been, and continue to be, severe. She mentioned the Member of Parliament, Leyla Zana, who has had a torrid time—and that is probably a great example of English understatement from this Welshman—because she has fought for democracy. Turkey has to learn that it must not only get its house in order financially, but get its human rights into shape. The leaders of France, Germany, Greece and others also have to learn that they have a responsibility to Turkey. We set the criteria and once they are met, with independent verification, Turkey must be allowed in. We cannot continue to erect new barriers to Turkey joining the European Union. As a member of the Council of Europe, I like to think that it is a bigger family than the EU. We have some of the more troublesome—perhaps I should say, younger and fledgling—countries in the Council of Europe, and they look to us. That is one reason why I was so disturbed when Russia invaded Georgia, and I am also concerned about what Russia is doing on other fronts. As a member of the Council of Europe, I observed Russian parliamentary and presidential elections and I was disturbed to find that emergency legislation was pushed through the Duma at breakneck speed to increase the presidential term to six years and the parliamentary term to five years. Most countries are going the other way. I am told, ““Don't worry, the Finnish presidency is the same length””, but while I do not wish to denigrate Finland, I would have thought that Russia should be comparing itself to the US, which has a four-year presidential term. Indeed, the US Congress is elected on a two-year rolling programme, which is too short for my liking. Imagine what it would be like here if we had elections every two years—it would be impossible. It was not good to have two Council of Europe countries at war. We need a better understanding of the international institutions that can be used to sort out the problems that exist. Other Council of Europe member states, such as Ukraine and the Balkan states, which were mentioned earlier, are looking to join the European Union at some stage. Sometimes people point to Eurosceptics like me and say, ““Ah, you don't want all these people coming from Europe and taking all our jobs.”” But nobody speaks more highly than I do of the people who have come from other European Union countries to work here legitimately. They all seem to be very hard workers with good skills, and I have no problem with them. The funny thing is that the two countries that had derogations to prevent such workers coming were France and Germany. We did not have a derogation—we said, ““Come in”” from day one. That was a bit of a mistake, and we should have specified the skills that we needed, but the fact is we are where we are. At some stage, the Balkan countries want to join the European Union, and they may be looking at what happened with the Czechs and the Poles. In the eyes of the French and the Germans, those countries have not been wholly communautaire—in other words, they have not taken everything spoon-fed. Instead they have questioned things, and it is probably healthy for democracy in Europe that the Czechs and the Poles should question how we are developing. Those two countries are actually very good friends to the UK, and we are delighted that they are full members of the European Union. At some stage, I hope that countries such as Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania and Serbia will have the opportunity to join the European Union. We will then be talking about expansion to include other countries, such as Georgia and Ukraine. Russia has tried to block Georgia and Ukraine from becoming members of NATO, and has done so in the most cack-handed fashion, and I hope that nothing similar will happen when the other countries apply to become members of the EU. However, we are not even at that stage yet. A number of countries in the EU would prefer it to go deeper rather than wider. We will have several problems in trying to get some of the other Balkan states into the European Union, but that will not be because they are not ready. We could argue that some of them are as ready as Bulgaria and Romania were when they entered the EU—some would say that we should have waited a bit longer in those cases, but the fact is they are members. If we are seen as fortress Europe—if we let in 27 or 28 countries, but not Turkey, and are then not interested in the Balkan states because our members would prefer the union to go deeper—to where will the other countries look? The only way in which we can try to raise their economies, to improve their human rights records, to follow the rule of law and to improve the strength of their democracies is by saying, ““Come and join us.”” Once they have reached those targets and raised their democracies to a certain level, the doors should be wide open. Although expansion of the EU will not be at the top of the agenda at the summit, I hope that the Government will take the opportunity to raise the issue of what will happen in the future to the countries that want to join the EU. I know that it will not happen tomorrow—it might be several years down the line before those countries might be able to join—but we need to look for another stepping stone that they can use to allow them to tick several more boxes on the way. That would at least give them some hope. Nothing could be crueller than for us to say that as we are now 27 or 28 countries, that we want to go deeper and that we are not really interested in what is happening on our doorstep. If Russia and Georgia were to kick off in the same way as my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne was talking about, that will leave misery and huge problems in its wake, which will suck us in. We can hardly talk about carrying out operations in Africa and Somalia while turning our backs on what is happening on our doorsteps. We need to get that right. We need to get strategies together and to talk to other European Union leaders, including President Sarkozy, who has been an amazing president of the European Council for the past six months. I hope that when it comes to 31 December, however good he has been, he will realise that the Czechs will be taking over and must be given a fair wind to do what they want to do with the European Union, too. I am not totally opposed to Europe. I like the European Union countries and I like visiting them, too, but I am British first. I believe in the sovereignty of our Parliament and that is why people elected me. I want Europe to develop in the interests of all the people of Europe, and that is another reason why I think that it is right from time to time to consult the British people on how they wish to be governed.