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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Tuesday, 13 December 2005, in the House of Lords.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Lords Committee stage third day. Clauses 19-29 agreed to, Clause 23 as amended agreed to. New clauses considered. (Part 2 of 2)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
676 c1198-246 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Terrorism Bill
Tuesday, 13 December 2005
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1224-5 (Link to this contribution) Because intercept evidence means a variety of different things to different people. Intercept eviden...
Show all contributions (65)
Lord Elton | 676 c1224 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Baroness explain to a fascinated and as yet uncommitted observer who like her is not...
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 676 c1226 (Link to this contribution) Leaving aside the challenge that, ““Some people do not know about the courts but they know about som...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1225-6 (Link to this contribution) I respect the noble Baroness enormously, as she knows, and her experience in the Foreign Office. But...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1224 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may finish the point. I am sure that all the noble Lords will get up and challenge me imme...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1224 (Link to this contribution) Of course there are people who know. But I beg to differ with the noble Baroness. Of course I knew w...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 676 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I was talking about in methodology. The methodology is not a secret. There are people who know.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1231 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt. My noble friend and I did not argue ““absolutely””; we said ““as things sta...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1226 (Link to this contribution) We all accept that we come from different backgrounds, but to accuse those who have a different view...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1231 (Link to this contribution) At the moment, as we all know, there is a ban on domestic intercepts in UK court proceedings. My nob...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c1230 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, she referred to the report from Sir Swinton Thomas about the la...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 676 c1228-30 (Link to this contribution) I find myself yet again at complete loggerheads with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwi...
Baroness Park of Monmouth | 676 c1227-8 (Link to this contribution) We are not worried about bugging, intercepts and all the rest of it—of course that can be done, and ...
Viscount Brookeborough | 676 c1227 (Link to this contribution) First, I apologise for not being here at the beginning of this; I did not quite fall asleep, but I d...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the words ““carried away”” were meant to mean, but they were pretty clear to thos...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1226-7 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly do so, and I will go and stand in the corner for a moment with a hat on my head. I ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1214-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 129:"After Clause 24, insert the following new clause—"    ““EXPIRY OR RENEWAL...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I simply observe that the length of this amendment is of inverse importance to the political impact ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c1216-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130:"After Clause 24, insert the following new clause—"    ““EVIDENCE (1)   Th...
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 676 c1218-20 (Link to this contribution) On the grounds that I do not have the same amount of déjà vu on the subject as everyone else, I will...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c1213 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125:"Page 23, line 33, leave out ““Court of Session”” and insert ““High Court of...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1223-4 (Link to this contribution) I know that that is not the noble and learned Lord’s point. But it is remarkable that, none the less...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) Did the noble Lord ever make that point to the governments of France and Germany when he was Secreta...
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 676 c1220 (Link to this contribution) That sounds quite plausible and reasonable. If Sir Swinton Thomas, who is in charge, were to come an...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c1220 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask him a question. Is he arguing that there would be...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c1222-3 (Link to this contribution) As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, said, this issue was discussed in the inte...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c1222 (Link to this contribution) In holding the scales, justice may be blind but there is no reason why prosecution should be. Speaki...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 676 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) I support the new clause. I do so, subject to all the precautions that one would wrap around it to e...
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 676 c1221 (Link to this contribution) Advising them on how they collected their intelligence was not really part of my responsibilities, b...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord on the delicate way in which he has threaded his way through the PACE ...
Lord Elton | 676 c1243 (Link to this contribution) I shall happily take away those remarks to digest and read tomorrow. Therefore, without future commi...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c1243 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 131:"Page 29, line 9, at end insert—" ““(d)   it shall operate without prejudi...
Lord Elton | 676 c1242 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that reply, though how grateful I shall not know until I have read col. 329 of the...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c1242-3 (Link to this contribution) As it happens, I dealt with the orders which were the product of a review of the PACE codes last Fri...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1244 (Link to this contribution) In relation to the provisions, we always consult our colleagues in Scotland to ensure that their exp...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c1244-5 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for her reply. I shall study it again. I had thought that she mig...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1243-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, for tabling the amendment. H...
Duke of Montrose | 676 c1244 (Link to this contribution) With the privileges accorded to us in Committee, perhaps the Minister would satisfy my curiosity as ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c1245-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1237-8 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down, perhaps I may ask her why everything she has said is incompatib...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1238 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that I had made the reason clear, but I will repeat it and make clear why I say it. Inte...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1238 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. As we are still in Committee, I shall exercise the scope t...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c1235 (Link to this contribution) I may have misheard the noble Baroness, but the latest Home Office review stated that there would be...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1235-7 (Link to this contribution) That is why I say that there might be an increase in convictions but that that would be modest. Expe...
Lord Elton | 676 c1237 (Link to this contribution) The Minister suggests strongly that what is required is a clause such as is now on the Marshalled Li...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1237 (Link to this contribution) We have to look at whether there is evidence for the clause now. The clear evidence is that there is...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c1238-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, and the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, made reference to the views of ...
Lord Elton | 676 c123941 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 130A:"After Clause 24, insert the following new clause—"    ““CONDITIONS OF AN...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 676 c1232 (Link to this contribution) I said that usually the value of intercept material is for intelligence purposes and operational pur...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1232-3 (Link to this contribution) I had not understood that aspect of the speech of the noble Baroness. I am sure that it is my fault ...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 676 c1232 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. That evidence is not convincing enough. It is not enough to s...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1232 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness is saying that intercept evidence is usually not of use in a prosecution, why ...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 676 c1231 (Link to this contribution) No. Please do not put words in my mouth. The noble Lord is saying that lots of prosecutions are not ...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1231-2 (Link to this contribution) That was certainly the view of the Privy Counsellors on the review committee of the Privy Council of...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1231 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that the noble Baronesses based their arguments on a point of principle. Indeed, I thi...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1234-5 (Link to this contribution) I have had the advantage of listening to this debate, as indeed I have had on a number of other occa...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1233 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord accept that one would not prosecute in a security case unless one is security c...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c1233-4 (Link to this contribution) It must follow from what I have said that that is so. I respectfully suggest to the Minister, who is...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 676 c1230-1 (Link to this contribution) This is a quotation from Sir Swinton Thomas’s report for 2004 published on 3 November 2005. That is ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c1238 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, that is because there have been no such cases where the intelligence agencies ha...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c1226 (Link to this contribution) I do not know—how am I supposed to answer for what is in his mind? That is precisely the sort of thi...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Civil liberties Admissibility of evidence Criminal proceedings Codes of practice Appeals Administration of justice Detainees Crimes against property Communication Electronic surveillance Evidence Intelligence services Judges Police Prosecutions Proscribed organisations Police custody Politics and government Scotland Terrorism Remand in custody Time limits Telephone tapping Cryptography Sunset clauses
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk