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Adjournment debate on Thursday, 27 April 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Tony Wright. The answering member was Jim Murphy.

Honours System (Reform)

Westminster Hall adjournment debate on the reform of the honours system.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
445 c329-72WH 
Session
2005-06
Department
Cabinet Office
Chamber / Committee
Westminster Hall
Related items
Reform of the honours system.
Tuesday, 22 February 2005
Command papers
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) Order. Absolutely not. Not this time.
Speaker | 445 c356WH (Link to this contribution) (in the Chair): Order. I think that it should be pointed out that no charges were laid.
Show all contributions (125)
Tony Wright | 445 c335WH (Link to this contribution) : That is an interesting observation from the hon. Gentleman. If we consider the history of the hono...
Oliver Heald | 445 c335WH (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman is right that new honours have been added to the overall package over the years...
Tony Wright | 445 c335WH (Link to this contribution) : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has read the report. We deal with the point that the system is p...
Tony Wright | 445 c335-6WH (Link to this contribution) : There is only one thing worse than deliberate political correctness, and that is deliberate politi...
Tony Wright | 445 c335WH (Link to this contribution) : As my hon. Friend will remember, we took the view that it was probably time to move away from what...
Oliver Heald | 445 c335WH (Link to this contribution) : Is not all this just denying our history? We have well-respected honours that people like, so why ...
Tony Wright | 445 c333WH (Link to this contribution) : One reason why the issue has surfaced in recent times is that people feel uncomfortable with the w...
Russell Brown | 445 c333WH (Link to this contribution) About 2 per cent. of awards are refused, but refusals by high-profile individuals grab the limelight...
Tony Wright | 445 c333WH (Link to this contribution) : There is an issue about whether someone makes their refusal public. I am not sure that there is an...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c333WH (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think that the refusal to accept an award adds lustre to the intended recipient?...
Tony Wright | 445 c334WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed it does. That is one of the fundamental issues. The clearest evidence is that the more seni...
Lord Wills | 445 c334WH (Link to this contribution) : My hon. Friend is extremely generous to give way so often. Does he agree that the metropolitan bia...
Tony Wright | 445 c334WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed there is. As I am sure my hon. Friend has seen, the report includes a statistical appendix ...
David Leslie Taylor | 445 c333-4WH (Link to this contribution) As the renowned Tom Jones might say, it is not unusual to find people who would add lustre to awards...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c334-5WH (Link to this contribution) : Is it not the case that our society is still, in the 21st century, hierarchical? The honours syste...
Tony Wright | 445 c333WH (Link to this contribution) : He was a Staffordshire man, and I am inherently well disposed towards awards for Staffordshire men...
Peter Bone | 445 c332WH (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that some civil servants might get an honour automatically? Is that ac...
Tony Wright | 445 c332WH (Link to this contribution) : I am grateful for that reminder. The danger of citing historical instances in which honours have a...
Lord Wills | 445 c332WH (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to hon. Members' exchanges and I wonder whether my hon. Friend agrees that the...
Tony Wright | 445 c332WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed it is not. A reader of our report will see that we deal quite vigorously with that issue an...
Oliver Heald | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. O'Hara. Surely, the title was given to Denis Thatcher, not Mark Thatcher.
Speaker | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) (in the Chair): Order. I do not think that there is any suggestion that Mark Thatcher's line of desc...
Andrew Turner | 445 c331-2WH (Link to this contribution) I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman was able to go back only 100 years. Is he aware that the abol...
Tony Wright | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed it was. When the Committee took evidence from John Major, it was interesting to see the emb...
Joan Walley | 445 c332-3WH (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that we owe some people a posthumous debt of honour for services of distin...
Tony Wright | 445 c332WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed they are not, and a well-honed honours system will take that on board when honours are awar...
Tony Wright | 445 c330-1WH (Link to this contribution) : I suspect that there was always hypocrisy and claptrap, but if the hon. Gentleman asks whether I t...
Hywel Williams | 445 c330WH (Link to this contribution) My predecessor as Member for Caernarfon, Lloyd George, took, in the 1920s, a very straightforward vi...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) Mark Thatcher was of course given a hereditary baronetcy by the former Conservative Prime Minister—
Tony Wright | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) : That is a fascinating suggestion. I am surprised that members of the press, who are so assiduous o...
Stephen Pound | 445 c331WH (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend leaves that point—I give him credit for the extraordinarily deep historical re...
Tony Wright | 445 c329-30WH (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to be able to introduce to the House a report of the Public Administration Co...
Andrew Turner | 445 c348WH (Link to this contribution) : I have insufficient knowledge of the workings of the Chinese Government, who are considerably more...
Lord Wills | 445 c348WH (Link to this contribution) : I am curious about the hon. Gentleman's argument. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North ...
Andrew Turner | 445 c348WH (Link to this contribution) : A combination of things is involved, including elements of co-option, naturalisation and good rule...
Tony Wright | 445 c349WH (Link to this contribution) : I am slightly puzzled by the hon. Gentleman's remarks. He said that he thinks all the people who g...
Andrew Turner | 445 c349WH (Link to this contribution) : I do not deny that. I do not think the system perfect, but I question whether the new system propo...
Simon Hughes | 445 c348-9WH (Link to this contribution) : Last year, we saw for the first time the names of the chairs of the eight sub-committees that reco...
Jim Murphy | 445 c372WH (Link to this contribution) : With your agreement, Mr. O'Hara, and with the understanding of hon. Members and the Chairman of th...
Jim Murphy | 445 c370-2WH (Link to this contribution) : I am delighted to have this opportunity to respond to the debate, which has been remarkable in its...
Oliver Heald | 445 c370WH (Link to this contribution) : Someone who donates to a political party should not be debarred or disqualified from receiving hon...
Oliver Heald | 445 c368-70WH (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Committee on its report. We are indebted to it for such a detailed piece of work,...
Simon Hughes | 445 c366-8WH (Link to this contribution) : No. For example, the lord lieutenant for Greater London is Lord Imbert, the former Metropolitan Po...
Simon Hughes | 445 c364-6WH (Link to this contribution) I am happy to take part in this debate. I am also happy to say that I have never previously taken pa...
Russell Brown | 445 c363-4WH (Link to this contribution) : I agree with my hon. Friend, at least partially. I am sure that we can all recount tales of those ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c363WH (Link to this contribution) : One suggestion I made to the Committee was that all the honours ought to be for ordinary, unrecogn...
Simon Hughes | 445 c352WH (Link to this contribution) : I realise that this is a controversial proposal to come from those on the Liberal Democrat Benches...
Andrew Turner | 445 c352WH (Link to this contribution) : Legally, such people do not get a title; they get an honorific. The title of the wife of a knight ...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c352-3WH (Link to this contribution) A lot of ground has been covered, so I shall be brief. The Committee's report was published in 2004...
Simon Hughes | 445 c353WH (Link to this contribution) : I think that has happened a few times; I think that three head teachers have become dames.
Andrew Turner | 445 c351-2WH (Link to this contribution) : I have no dispute with that fact. Such people get their awards from the Queen—from the Crown—not f...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) : My Friend must learn to think better of people. As I understand it, Vanessa Redgrave did not go pu...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c353WH (Link to this contribution) : I am not talking about head teachers. That shows the confusion; it is on the record now. What I am...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c353-4WH (Link to this contribution) : There is an interesting example that confirms that point. In the television programme ““A Touch of...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c354WH (Link to this contribution) : Indeed. I have made this point, and it is not an eccentric position for a usual suspect. I have a...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c354-5WH (Link to this contribution) : When I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), I made the point ab...
Andrew Turner | 445 c350WH (Link to this contribution) : Well, clearly we did not do so much mischief that such people did not want to come to this country...
Tony Wright | 445 c350WH (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman must take on board the powerful evidence that the Committee received from Sir J...
Andrew Turner | 445 c349WH (Link to this contribution) : The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I am sure that the Committee's intentions are perf...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c349-50WH (Link to this contribution) : I am puzzled by the idea of the British empire being a force for good in the world. About a third ...
Andrew Turner | 445 c351WH (Link to this contribution) : I am pleased that I can have such influence.
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c351WH (Link to this contribution) : I shall make a simple point. We can see a conservative point to keeping the same letters—there is ...
Andrew Turner | 445 c350WH (Link to this contribution) : I am sure I could devise a more minimal change than changing one word in the order's title. Second...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c350-1WH (Link to this contribution) : When the hon. Gentleman makes reference to the description ““grey””, I am unsure whether he is ref...
Andrew Turner | 445 c350WH (Link to this contribution) : First, we are not talking about minimum change. Minimum change is no change.
Adrian Bailey | 445 c358WH (Link to this contribution) : I am not sure that I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. The point that I am trying to get acro...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c358WH (Link to this contribution) : It is not the accusation of corruption that demeans the honours list but the fact that people may ...
Adrian Bailey | 445 c358-9WH (Link to this contribution) : That is entering into another debate. The point that I was coming to is that I see no problem with...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c359WH (Link to this contribution) : I profoundly disagree with what my hon. Friend is saying. People are not fooled; they know what is...
Adrian Bailey | 445 c359WH (Link to this contribution) : I listened to my hon. Friend's speech, but did not intervene because I profoundly disagree with hi...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c359WH (Link to this contribution) : I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend's argument and that of the hon. Member for Isle of Wight...
Adrian Bailey | 445 c359-60WH (Link to this contribution) : I agree with the thrust of what my hon. Friend said, but I am not sure that I would have made exac...
Tony Wright | 445 c360WH (Link to this contribution) : I find myself in agreement with much of what my hon. Friend says. Surely the point—there is no con...
Adrian Bailey | 445 c360-1WH (Link to this contribution) : The point that I was making is that an independent body that is divorced from the political proces...
Russell Brown | 445 c361-3WH (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for C...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) : She certainly would not now. My hon. Friend has done it for her.
Gordon Prentice | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) : It was a leak from somewhere in the system. It is in the public domain.
Gordon Prentice | 445 c355-6WH (Link to this contribution) : What has Mark Thatcher done? Well, we know what he has done; we read about it in the papers all th...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) : On the same point, Michael Foot, Jack Jones and others refused peerages on principle, because they...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c355WH (Link to this contribution) : The simple point that I am trying to make is that if we had an honours system that followed the si...
Adrian Bailey | 445 c358WH (Link to this contribution) I came here this afternoon to make a specific point but, having listened to the debate, I would like...
Andrew Turner | 445 c358WH (Link to this contribution) : In his closing words the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) suggested that there should not be ...
Gordon Prentice | 445 c356-7WH (Link to this contribution) : I understand. This matter is not sub judice. There are no charges; I will make that absolutely cle...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c348WH (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman's analysis is incorrect. We have not had revolutions in Britain because, in tim...
Andrew Turner | 445 c348WH (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Member for North Swindon (Mr. Wills) wants to intervene. However, I referred to the hon. ...
Andrew Turner | 445 c347-8WH (Link to this contribution) It has been a great pleasure to listen to the debate, Mr. O'Hara. On purpose, I did not seek to catc...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c346-7WH (Link to this contribution) : When I first stood for selection in my party, we were not permitted to mention money at all. We co...
Oliver Heald | 445 c343WH (Link to this contribution) : The way in which the Government put it in their response—for once I rather agree with them—is that...
Lord Wills | 445 c340-2WH (Link to this contribution) I begin by congratulating the Committee on an admirable, thorough, first-class report. I agree with ...
Lord Wills | 445 c343WH (Link to this contribution) : Of course, my hon. Friend is right. That is what I meant when I talked about the difficulty of ide...
Lord Wills | 445 c342-3WH (Link to this contribution) : I am happy to try to do so, but we are splitting hairs; it is a matter of semantics. The extraordi...
Lord Wills | 445 c343WH (Link to this contribution) : I agree entirely. My point is that both those considerations should be reflected in the upper eche...
Lord Wills | 445 c343-4WH (Link to this contribution) : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his contribution, but there is no question of inflating the nu...
Lord Beith | 445 c338WH (Link to this contribution) Was the hon. Gentleman not amused to re-read the passage in the Government's response to the report ...
Tony Wright | 445 c336-7WH (Link to this contribution) : The distinction is between those who can nominate and those who make awards. It is perfectly prope...
Andrew Turner | 445 c337WH (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman is kind in giving way again. His mention of Sir Hayden Phillips brings to mind ...
Tony Wright | 445 c337-8WH (Link to this contribution) : One of the points about having a different system is not only to do with the mechanics of choosing...
Stephen Pound | 445 c336WH (Link to this contribution) : My hon. Friend has been extraordinarily generous in giving way. I should say that when I was offer...
Simon Hughes | 445 c336WH (Link to this contribution) The report, which is an extremely good one, does retain some nomination rights for Government to the...
Tony Wright | 445 c336WH (Link to this contribution) : It might be that a character of honour could appropriately be arrived at by that route. Perhaps ho...
Peter Bone | 445 c346WH (Link to this contribution) : On that point, surely one could say that political parties could take money to allow people to bec...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c346WH (Link to this contribution) : Things are not perfect, and I would like considerable improvements in all parties, including mine,...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c346WH (Link to this contribution) : All political parties have a membership fee and rely on finance in order to carry out their day-to...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c338WH (Link to this contribution) : Is it not indeed an honour to sit in the House of Commons, and are we not called hon. Members?
Tony Wright | 445 c338WH (Link to this contribution) : It is the highest honour in the land to sit in the House of Commons. It should be an honour, as a ...
Tony Wright | 445 c338WH (Link to this contribution) : That is an interesting point. The argument was that transparency would take care of the issue; tha...
Speaker | 445 c338WH (Link to this contribution) (in the Chair): Order. I remind hon. Members wishing to catch my eye that the three Front-Bench cont...
Peter Bone | 445 c339WH (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Tony Wright] on his introduction and his rathe...
Andrew Turner | 445 c339WH (Link to this contribution) : Does my hon. Friend not accept that patronage within political parties does not need to be oiled b...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c339WH (Link to this contribution) : What would happen if someone tried to buy a candidacy in a political party? Would the hon. Gentlem...
Peter Bone | 445 c339WH (Link to this contribution) : My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I want to keep specifically to the question of honours and ...
Peter Bone | 445 c339-40WH (Link to this contribution) : I am saying only that we should have an elected House of Lords. We have reached that stage. I hop...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c343WH (Link to this contribution) : While I agree with my hon. Friend's analysis and many of his conclusions, I am concerned about how...
Andrew Turner | 445 c342WH (Link to this contribution) : I am a little confused by the hon. Gentleman's elision of status with achievement, as compared wit...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c343WH (Link to this contribution) : Suppose that a police sergeant were to be made a knight. Given that there are 43 police forces in ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c346WH (Link to this contribution) : Those are matters for political parties. A political party that had such obvious corruption within...
Mark Hendrick | 445 c345-6WH (Link to this contribution) : Will my hon. Friend answer the question that the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) would n...
Kelvin Hopkins | 445 c344-5WH (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to have this opportunity to comment on our Committee's report. I congratulate my hon. F...
Subjects
Honours Reform Public Administration Select Committee
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