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Debate on bill and Committee of the Whole House (HL) on Wednesday, 11 October 2006, in the House of Lords.

Armed Forces Bill

Armed Forces Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 11-161 agreed to, clauses 24,31,33,58,124,128,129,136,142 and 155 as amended. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to, schedule 2 as amended. New clauses considered. (Part 1 of 2)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
685 c259-323 
Session
2005-06
Department
Ministry of Defence
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Armed Forces Bill
Wednesday, 11 October 2006
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Viscount Slim | 685 c273 (Link to this contribution) I am not too clear on this point. What happens if on operations—say there is an ambush or something—...
Viscount Slim | 685 c294 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. It seems that it is the luckless soldier who gets court martialled if...
Show all contributions (141)
Viscount Slim | 685 c269 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, may I say that the word ““enhancement”” mentioned by the noble Lord...
Lord Drayson | 685 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 56 to 57: Page 14, line 36, leave out paragraph (b) and insert- ““(b) either...
Lord Drayson | 685 c281-2 (Link to this contribution) This issue goes to the heart of the Bill. There are two key principles underpinning the Bill with wh...
Lord Ramsbotham | 685 c292 (Link to this contribution) I preface my brief intervention by saying how much I and, I suspect, many of my colleagues have appr...
Earl Attlee | 685 c291 (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that there is a problem with rules of engagement, but I have some difficulties wit...
Lord Inge | 685 c294 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the inclusion of the rules of engagement. Perhaps I may sound one word of caution: t...
Lord Craig of Radley | 685 c294 (Link to this contribution) Before I had given a lot of thought to this topic, I did not think that the rules of engagement shou...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 685 c293 (Link to this contribution) I, too, rise to support what my noble friend Lord Kingsland said, including the fact that this is to...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c292-3 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in his expression that the rules of engagement should be c...
Lord Drayson | 685 c296-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Campbell, raises an important point when describing the similarity between orde...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c295 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for intervening, but we are coming to a crucial point. Does the noble Lord accept that, ...
Lord Drayson | 685 c295 (Link to this contribution) I will write separately to the noble Viscount on his question relating to the situation in Afghanist...
Lord Drayson | 685 c259 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) The Minister should look again at subsection (4), which says that 10 years is the maximum for—no, he...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c263-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 37: Page 8, line 20, after ““law”” insert ““, or a civilian subject to service...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c262 (Link to this contribution) The suggestion is that ““disrespectful”” must be defined. How on earth do you define it other than a...
Lord Drayson | 685 c262 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the exchanges across the Committee on this matter. It goes to the heart...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c261 (Link to this contribution) We have some sympathy with the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, but I want to be...
Lord Borrie | 685 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I felt a great deal of sympathy with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, except on...
Lord Drayson | 685 c264-6 (Link to this contribution) Clause 36 creates an offence relating to the signing of false certificates. The certificates are pro...
Lord Garden | 685 c266 (Link to this contribution) The Minister reads from his brief without responding to our debate. Regarding my amendment, which ai...
Earl Attlee | 685 c264 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee of my interest as a serving officer in the TA, subject to military law as I s...
Lord Garden | 685 c264 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled one amendment in this group but I shall speak first to the other amendments. We are ge...
Earl Attlee | 685 c268 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Garden, is talking a lot of sense on both points.
Lord Drayson | 685 c268 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Attlee—the noble Lord does talk a lot of sense on these points. He...
Lord Williams of Elvel | 685 c269 (Link to this contribution) The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, makes a good point. Is there a definition of performance-enhancing dr...
Lord Drayson | 685 c267 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes a fair point relating to the complexity of the military equipment in some cases...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c267 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister for interrupting him. I misheard him and thought that he was speaking to...
Lord Garden | 685 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 42: Page 9, line 26, after ““orders”” insert ““or advice”” The noble Lord sai...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 685 c269 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support what the noble Lord, Lord Garden, said, and to ask the Minister to clarify...
Lord Drayson | 685 c269 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely understand the noble and learned Lord’s concerns. This is an important point because we...
Lord Drayson | 685 c272-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 50 and 51: Page 10, line 35, leave out subsections (1) to (3) and insert- ““...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c272 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for his support. I am grateful that the Minister understands ou...
Lord Garden | 685 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. It has been a useful short debate on an important and developing subject. I am ...
Lord May of Oxford | 685 c270 (Link to this contribution) I do not know a great deal about this subject, but there are at least three categories: medical, ope...
Lord Craig of Radley | 685 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) I am not absolutely happy about this. The medical advice is about the safety or otherwise of the dru...
Earl Attlee | 685 c272 (Link to this contribution) I shall exercise some judgment and shall not move Amendment No. 49.
Lord Drayson | 685 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) The offence as drafted, like the offence which it replaces in the existing service discipline Acts, ...
Lord Garden | 685 c271 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments in this group tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever. After the Deep...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c271 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 44: Page 10, line 1, after ““abusive,”” insert ““harassing,”” The noble Lord ...
Lord Drayson | 685 c275 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very helpful debate which has raised a number of issues. I will go away and consider...
Earl Attlee | 685 c273 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may illustrate a situation from my experience which shows why this amendment is necessary....
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c273 (Link to this contribution) Although I accept that these amendments are probing, we support their thrust. We feel that service p...
Lord Drayson | 685 c274 (Link to this contribution) I agree with noble Lords focusing on this very important area. The noble Lord, Lord Garden, raised t...
Lord Craig of Radley | 685 c274 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems attached to the use of the word ““reckless”” in the clause, rather than the word ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 685 c274 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister considered the use of the words, ““or without lawful excuse””? That might meet the ...
Lord Borrie | 685 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that several noble Lords have made vital points. Whether or not one agrees with the s...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 685 c274 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble and gallant Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Garden, in asking the Minister to take...
Lord Garden | 685 c273 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 52: Page 11, line 26, after ““he”” insert ““knowingly”” The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Drayson | 685 c277 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification. He makes a very good point. I will go away a...
Lord Garden | 685 c277 (Link to this contribution) I am of course aware that a number of orders and regulations will be locally provided. My point is b...
Lord Drayson | 685 c277 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Garden. He is right. In addition to the low-f...
Lord Craig of Radley | 685 c277 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I just want to make it clear that the clause, as I read it, refers to...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c276 (Link to this contribution) This is a sensible amendment, which we support. As the noble Lord and my noble friend said, operatio...
Lord Lyell | 685 c276 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garden, for making a point about the authorised height, becaus...
Lord Garden | 685 c276 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 58: Page 15, line 25, at end insert ““and authorised for the specific flight””...
Lord Drayson | 685 c275 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 54 and 55: Page 13, line 38, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert- “...
Lord Borrie | 685 c283-4 (Link to this contribution) Since the 18th century our law has given courts martial jurisdiction over civilian dependants and em...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 685 c285 (Link to this contribution) The case made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, as reinforced just now by the noble Lord, ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c282 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that reporting on the conduct of junior officers at courts martial is now a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c282 (Link to this contribution) Your Lordships now know that, from the 16th and 17th century, exceptions for the serious offences of...
Lord Drayson | 685 c282 (Link to this contribution) I shall take further advice on those points and will write to the noble Lord with an answer.
Lord Garden | 685 c277 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 34 agreed to. Claus...
Earl Attlee | 685 c281 (Link to this contribution) I disagreed with quite a lot of the background to what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c289-91 (Link to this contribution) My name is on Amendment No. 61, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Kingsland for his expositi...
Lord Vincent of Coleshill | 685 c291 (Link to this contribution) On Amendment No. 61 I understand the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Garden, that rules o...
Lord Drayson | 685 c286-7 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the points made on the Floor of this House and my comments on Amendment...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c287-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in support of Amendment No. 60—in particular, the ...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c288 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 61: After Clause 49, insert the following new clause- ““RULES OF ENGAGEMENT (1...
Lord Garden | 685 c289 (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 62 would add to the rules of engagement amendment, if they were to be put on a stat...
Earl Attlee | 685 c285 (Link to this contribution) In the 1950s, it may have been impractical to send all the players to a Crown Court trial in the Uni...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 685 c285 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lords who have spoken on this matter. I hope that the Minister will at least say...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c285-6 (Link to this contribution) Regarding Amendment No. 60, I need do no more than respectfully adopt the interventions made by my n...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c285 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was referring to a military law separate and distinct from the civil system. That was s...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c322 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble and learned Lord confirm that that applies in a different circumstance? Let us suppos...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c320-2 (Link to this contribution) I do like this place. I think that I have been quite clear with the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, on ...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c319 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. This afternoon, the Minister has been at pains to emphasise—particularly in the ...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c317-9 (Link to this contribution) I thought it right to speak to this amendment myself because it relates to my role, it arises out of...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c319 (Link to this contribution) That was not my understanding of what the Minister indicated at Second Reading, and perhaps between ...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c316-7 (Link to this contribution) I have been named by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway as one Member of your Lordships’ House...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 685 c314-6 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend beside me has rendered the Committee a signal service in the tenacity and perspicaci...
Baroness Crawley | 685 c323 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be resumed, and, in doing so, I suggest that the Committee begin again ...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c322-3 (Link to this contribution) As I understand the way in which the Bill operates, if a director makes such a direction, it has the...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c323 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General for his assurance. He is right—it gives me t...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c322 (Link to this contribution) I did not have that in mind. The noble Lord’s example is slightly odd because he says if the civilia...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c322 (Link to this contribution) I understood the noble and learned Lord to say that under the present arrangements where there is du...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c322 (Link to this contribution) I was not dealing with that with that case at all and I am not giving any assurances about that. We ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 685 c322 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minster sits down, he mentioned Clause 126, which is headed: "““Directions by the DSP bar...
Lord Drayson | 685 c307-8 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 76 is unnecessary. Clause 91 allows a commanding officer to authorise any member of th...
Lord Garden | 685 c308-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for going through all those amendments. I apologise for not having spo...
Lord Garden | 685 c306-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 76: Page 43, line 7, leave out ““An officer”” and insert ““A commanding office...
Earl Attlee | 685 c307 (Link to this contribution) I shall not speak to AmendmentNo. 77.
Lord Drayson | 685 c309 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be helpful to the noble Lord. The maximum time that an accused may be kept in custody...
Earl Attlee | 685 c305 (Link to this contribution) I shall not speak to AmendmentNo. 71.
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c306 (Link to this contribution) In the light of the Minister’s undertaking, I am very happy to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, b...
Viscount Simon | 685 c306 (Link to this contribution) There is an error in the Marshalled List. Amendment No. 73 should come after Amendment No. 75. [Ame...
Lord Garden | 685 c305-6 (Link to this contribution) As far as the principle of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever, goes, anything whic...
Lord Drayson | 685 c306 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response to my letter, and I am happy to assure him categori...
Lord Ramsbotham | 685 c311 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for the guarantee.
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c311 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his undertaking and for his assurance that we will have the earlie...
Lord Drayson | 685 c311-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 90A: After Clause 117, insert the following new clause- ““DUTY OF SERVICE POLI...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c312-4 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 91: Before Clause 118, insert the following new clause- ““MODE OF TRIAL (1) The...
Lord Garden | 685 c309-10 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that. So the time limits are all covered, which is what I wanted to know, and I am...
Lord Drayson | 685 c310 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 87 and 88: Page 193, line 22, leave out ““or (2)”” Page 193, line 23, leav...
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c310 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 89: After Clause 115, insert the following new clause- ““Duty of service polic...
Lord Ramsbotham | 685 c310-1 (Link to this contribution) When we discussed this whole issue with the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Astor, has mentioned that—...
Lord Drayson | 685 c311 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I do not think that there is any disagreement between us on the cen...
Lord Garden | 685 c311 (Link to this contribution) Having given general support to the amendments, these Benches are pleased to see that the Government...
Lord Garden | 685 c297 (Link to this contribution) From what he has said, I do not think that the Minister intends to address my Amendment No. 62. Howe...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c299 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to all noble and gallant, noble and learned and nobl...
Lord Drayson | 685 c297-9 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with Amendment No. 62 because it is important. The noble Lord is absolutely right: we ha...
Lord Drayson | 685 c301 (Link to this contribution) On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, the answer is yes.
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c301 (Link to this contribution) Will the framework safeguard honest mistake? This is a relevant consideration in liability for murde...
Earl Attlee | 685 c301 (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot be faulted on the briefings he gives us. I suggest that he privately lets us see...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c300 (Link to this contribution) The ““absolute”” refers to the defence itself. But, of course, if a soldier who operates within the ...
Lord Garden | 685 c300 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. My only point is that subsection (7) states: "““It s...
Lord Drayson | 685 c300-1 (Link to this contribution) We had a meeting earlier in the year about the whole area of the rules of engagement and a briefing ...
Earl Attlee | 685 c300 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may urge the Minister to make available privately a viewing of the rules of engagement. If...
Lord Garden | 685 c302 (Link to this contribution) The debate has been extraordinarily useful. I remain uncertain about the effect of putting the rules...
Lord Drayson | 685 c301-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe it is helpful for us to continue the debate in this way this evening. I am prepared...
Lord Kingsland | 685 c301 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of the amendment is to assist not the commanders but the soldiers, who, after all, do th...
Lord Drayson | 685 c301 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. That is an excellent idea; let’s do it.
Lord Astor of Hever | 685 c305 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 70: After Clause 60, insert the following new clause- ““TIME LIMIT FOR CHARGIN...
Lord Drayson | 685 c304-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 69: Page 26, line 28, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and insert- ““(5) Subs...
Earl Attlee | 685 c304 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation. I have some queries, but I shall follow them up by oth...
Lord Drayson | 685 c303-4 (Link to this contribution) I will deal with Amendment No. 64 first and then go on to Amendments Nos. 65 to 68. Amendment No. 6...
Earl Attlee | 685 c302-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 64: Before Clause 52, insert the following new clause- ““PERSONS SUBJECT TO MI...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c302 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 63: After Clause 50, insert the following ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c259-61 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 31: Page 6, line 12, leave out ““or disrespectful”” The noble Lord said: My fi...
Lord Garden | 685 c275 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for undertaking to look at the matter again. The debate has been ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c282-3 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 60: Page 18, line 28, at end insert- ““( ) No civilian subject to service disci...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c278-81 (Link to this contribution) moved AmendmentNo. 59A: Page 18, line 26, at end insert- ““(1A) A person shall not be charged with...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c319 (Link to this contribution) I am not looking the slightest bit impatient. I am anxious to hear what the noble Lord says and am w...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 685 c316 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may raise with the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General the much-related point rega...
Lord Drayson | 685 c269 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend and for the points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Slim. A conside...
Lord Goldsmith | 685 c323 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the noble Earl. It counts as an acquittal and the rules for what we call ““autre foi...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 685 c319-20 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may intervene because I am involved in this. First, my noble friend Lord Kingsland got it ...
Subjects
Disciplinary proceedings Discipline Crime Alcoholic drinks Courts Armed forces Arrests Conduct Deployment Aircraft Courts martial Civilians Certification Defence equipment Evidence Eligibility Jurisdiction Drugs Maladministration Misconduct Powers Membership Prosecutions Misuse Public opinion Officers Low flying Young people Trials Rules of procedure Rules of engagement
Legislation
Armed Forces Bill 2005-06
Link
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