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Debate on Thursday, 15 October 2009, in the House of Commons, led by Bob Ainsworth. The answering member was Liam Fox.

Defence Policy

Debate on a motion that this House has considered the matter of defence policy.

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
497 c458-542 
Session
2008-09
Department
Ministry of Defence
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 497 c483 (Link to this contribution) Order. I must remind the House that a 10-minute limit applies to Back-Bench speeches. Actually, a 12...
John Baron | 497 c459 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Secretary of State would agree that until we reach the point that he has just des...
Show all contributions (177)
Julian Brazier | 497 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) So why do we not use more reserve aircrews, particularly for helicopters, as the Americans do? The f...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c467 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that I have allowed him to beat up certain people in the MOD over a period ...
Paul Flynn | 497 c467 (Link to this contribution) Can my right hon. Friend explain the circumstances in which we blew up two of our own Chinook helico...
Peter Bone | 497 c465 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Baron) spoke about the need for helicopters. Yesterday...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall come on to equipment very shortly in my speech. Nothing can eliminate completely the danger...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c465 (Link to this contribution) What does the second condition—that there should be an agreed approach to burden sharing within the ...
Tobias Ellwood | 497 c460 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State said that he has the support of the Conservatives, but I think that that exte...
James Gray | 497 c462 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State is quite right about the superb job that Brigadier Radford has done. I am gla...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c460 (Link to this contribution) I know that my hon. Friend does not support our involvement in Afghanistan and thinks that it is not...
Paul Flynn | 497 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) We hear lots about terrorist threats and the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, but can the Secretary of S...
Speaker | 497 c464 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I say that it would be helpful if interventions could be curbed in length? There is a lon...
Liam Fox | 497 c464 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again, and it is very helpful for t...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we will be prescriptive in that regard, but we need to have a discussion with al...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c462 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for arranging these opportunities for us to mix and to show our gratitude...
Lord Swire | 497 c468 (Link to this contribution) Many hon. Members have seen at first hand the extraordinary role being performed by the Territory Ar...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c468 (Link to this contribution) Many more troops are required on the ground. That is what General McChrystal is looking at now. We c...
Alan Reid | 497 c468 (Link to this contribution) In answering questions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Clegg) yester...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c468 (Link to this contribution) Let me come to the Territory Army; I will not try to avoid doing so in any way.
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c469 (Link to this contribution) The British development in Afghanistan amounts to £510 million over four years, and there is USAID o...
John Baron | 497 c467 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the Secretary of State back to the equipment increases with regard to trying to guard ag...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) I understand very well the difficulties that the Secretary of State is talking about. Does he agree ...
Paul Flynn | 497 c479 (Link to this contribution) I regret interrupting the hon. Gentleman's speech, and the question strikes me why on earth his part...
Liam Fox | 497 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) We were warned of such potentially catastrophic outcomes in Iraq, yet what has happened there has be...
Ian Davidson | 497 c481 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman speaks of the excellence of the Royal Navy, and we must obviously consider its fu...
Liam Fox | 497 c481-3 (Link to this contribution) I have the same experience as the Secretary of State—I know that the question is coming, and every s...
Paul Flynn | 497 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) The 200th soldier killed in Afghanistan was Kyle Adams. Charlene Barry is a constituent of mine. She...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am informed that the Scottish battalions have to find £4 million of cuts over a two-week period. D...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that they will. I hope that they do not and that the hon. Gentleman does not encourag...
Andrew Murrison | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State understand that such hibernation of skills—of the sort that the Public A...
Julian Lewis | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) The information that I have, which I believe to be accurate, is that the reason for the cut in fundi...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am certain that those facilities will not be put at risk in any way, and I will continue to satisf...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c471-2 (Link to this contribution) By and large, there is cross-party agreement in the House about the priorities for what we devote to...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), to whom I have not given way yet...
James Gray | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) No one would disagree with the Secretary of State about the main effort being centred on Afghanistan...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) I can only promise the House that, as we take these difficult decisions about prioritisation and the...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) "He is a regular and therefore cannot be trusted"?—I think that we have to guard against that! I hav...
Ian Davidson | 497 c487 (Link to this contribution) Clarity in procurement is important. Can we be clear about what the Liberal Democrat policy is in te...
Nick Harvey | 497 c488 (Link to this contribution) I am very sorry to say that the hon. Gentleman is quite right. There can be no doubt that that is th...
Liam Fox | 497 c488 (Link to this contribution) Given that very dark picture, I am tempted not to say that it is actually even worse than that. Howe...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 497 c489 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is always very thoughtful about such matters and I have been listening to him wit...
Julian Brazier | 497 c491 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's strong point is made even more powerful when one reflects on the fact that Afgh...
Tobias Ellwood | 497 c531-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to be the final Back Bencher to contribute to what has been an excellent debate tha...
Julian Lewis | 497 c534-7 (Link to this contribution) Unusually, we have had two days in a row in which to consider the grave problems facing our armed fo...
John Baron | 497 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise because, of the 37 names that, sadly, the Prime Minister read out yesterday, five were those ...
Ann Winterton | 497 c529-31 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to our armed services, their families and those who have fallen in the service of this...
Harry Cohen | 497 c537 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Julian Lewis | 497 c537 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry: not for the moment. Let me complete my quick survey of the contributions that have been...
Andrew Mackinlay | 497 c537 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has raised the subject of the number of Members who went in to bat today. I have ...
Julian Lewis | 497 c537 (Link to this contribution) As always, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I am only sorry that he was not present to contri...
Julian Lewis | 497 c538 (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that. Unfortunately, however, if a political solution is to be found in a counter-ins...
John Baron | 497 c537 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may have misheard what I said. I was suggesting that what we needed in Afghanistan at...
Michael Jack | 497 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that the Minister is pursuing the Japanese option, but in fairness to my Front-Bench ...
Lord Benyon | 497 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) May I start by asking you, Mr. Speaker, whether you had a moment to read the first few lines of the ...
Lord Benyon | 497 c519-21 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend served in the same regiment as me, but I will not give way as there is simply not tim...
Julian Brazier | 497 c521-3 (Link to this contribution) In fact, we have had several outstanding speeches, including the one by my hon. Friend the Member fo...
Speaker | 497 c526 (Link to this contribution) Order. With four Members still seeking to catch my eye, some trimming of speeches will be required i...
Robert Walter | 497 c526-8 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very good debate with some excellent speeches, particularly on Afghanistan. I do not...
Michael Jack | 497 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) rightly reminded us of the human dimension to all our defen...
Tobias Ellwood | 497 c516 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is advancing a powerful argument in explaining why the military need to move forward ...
Madeleine Moon | 497 c511-4 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely pleased to follow the hon. Member for Salisbury (Robert Key), who is a fellow member ...
Speaker | 497 c514 (Link to this contribution) Order. At least eight Members are seeking to catch my eye, so a certain self-restraint is required o...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 497 c511 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is obviously very well informed, and I am delighted that he was able to visit the...
Robert Key | 497 c511 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that point. I am sure he is right. Finally, I want to ...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 497 c517 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the Government are a much better friend to him on this sub...
Michael Jack | 497 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) I defer to my hon. Friend's knowledge, because he knows a great deal about these matters, but in any...
Julian Brazier | 497 c516 (Link to this contribution) This is, of course, one of the reasons why we need more citizen forces. Civilian technology is alway...
Michael Jack | 497 c516 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. My hon. Friend has made a good point. Technology will play a vital part in future warfare. F...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c507 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman's myopia. I was recently in the State Department and the Pentag...
Ian Davidson | 497 c507 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely clear whether those other countries would be offered the opportunity to have bases...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c507 (Link to this contribution) About 10,000 defence-related jobs have been lost in Scotland since Labour came to power. Is the hon....
Ian Davidson | 497 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) This is the man who says that the SNP can always do better. If Labour has lost 10,000, he wants to l...
Ian Davidson | 497 c507 (Link to this contribution) I got a clear, unequivocal statement from the Secretary of State earlier today, which firmly committ...
Robert Key | 497 c511 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I certainly do. That is an important conclusion: the LTPA needs looking at. Perhaps that is som...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c509 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for coming to my constituency to see the Hebrides range. Does he agree th...
Robert Key | 497 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) Madam Deputy Speaker, it is worth taking a few seconds of my precious 12 minutes to invite you to dr...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c511 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful again to the hon. Gentleman; he has been very generous in giving way. He is makin...
Robert Key | 497 c509-11 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I learned that and I learned too that while everything that is done at Aberporth could be done ...
Bill Rammell | 497 c542 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon), whose constituency I visited during the summer—[...
Harry Cohen | 497 c538 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Bill Rammell | 497 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the nods of assent that I am getting from those on the Conservative Benches. My hon. Frie...
Bill Rammell | 497 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) We have had a good and well-informed debate, which has demonstrated the strong degree of cross-party...
Julian Lewis | 497 c538 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. I am sorry. Time is against me, and I wish to go a little wider than the question of...
Bill Rammell | 497 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) We are actually supplementing that. That is crucial. The constant thrust of the comments we hear fro...
Liam Fox | 497 c539 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says the purpose of the cuts is to make money available for the front line in Afghanist...
Bill Rammell | 497 c542;497 c541 (Link to this contribution) No, I cannot. Forgive me. My hon. Friend the Member for—
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House has considered the matter of defence policy." Defence policy is abou...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c467 (Link to this contribution) The helicopters came down in the Helmand valley, well away from patrol bases, and a judgment must be...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c466 (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that there is a problem with spares for Mastiff 1, but we got Mastiff 1 into theat...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c465 (Link to this contribution) We have got agreements, but they have changed over time and the commitment of many nations has gone ...
Gerald Howarth | 497 c466 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State mentions the availability of equipment for pre-deployment training. He will k...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c460 (Link to this contribution) The reason I read out that list of agreements was to prove that what the hon. Gentleman says is not ...
Lord Swire | 497 c460 (Link to this contribution) Can the Secretary of State tell us what proportion of the Pakistani army is facing India, as opposed...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) I did not go to Pakistan to lecture them on what they ought and ought not to be doing, and I do not ...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the majority of the threats have come from the other side of the border, but I ask my ...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c459 (Link to this contribution) I intend to discuss troop numbers later in my speech—nobody is in any doubt that I would have to add...
Liam Fox | 497 c464 (Link to this contribution) In answer to a question in the House of Lords yesterday, Baroness Royall said that""it is the case t...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c464 (Link to this contribution) I am hopeful that we will be able to meet the conditions in a relatively short period of time, but B...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c464 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. All I would say to the hon. Member for Billericay is that we are part...
John Baron | 497 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Secretary of State's generosity in giving way, but there is a growing body of opini...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman appears to want to deride everything that our people do in every circumstance, so...
Tobias Ellwood | 497 c462 (Link to this contribution) The strategy that has been conducted up to now has been simplified as "clear, hold and build". The c...
Tobias Ellwood | 497 c469 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State. I think that there are more things on which we agree than d...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The basic problem is that we have supplied vehicles, such as...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c467 (Link to this contribution) A measure of the respect that we should show for our armed forces is that our people are holding dow...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c480 (Link to this contribution) The vehicles were not ready for the deployment of 19 Light Brigade and people were not trained to us...
Liam Fox | 497 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) With two years for procurement, one is tempted to ask why we did not have sufficient people trained ...
Paul Flynn | 497 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. We had a debate in March 2006—I commend the report of that debate to him—du...
Ian Davidson | 497 c474 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister like to confirm that the two aircraft carriers that have been ordered will be pro...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c474 (Link to this contribution) That is an improvement, as the last time I spoke my hon. Friend wanted five—to span the Firth of For...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c473 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my hon. Friend, so that he can tell me how many aircraft carriers he thinks shou...
Speaker | 497 c474 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), let me observe to the House that the ...
Liam Fox | 497 c474-9 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am very aware from your previous record of how your gentle hints are firm inst...
Brian Jenkins | 497 c474 (Link to this contribution) In the course of the defence review we shall take a lot of evidence about the demands on our forces,...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c474 (Link to this contribution) We will certainly try to draw these issues out in the Green Paper. I do not think that in any defenc...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says and know that he says it with conviction, but I can only repeat ...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, but I believe that, within the priorities that we have had ...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) No one—neither my predecessor nor I—has tried, in the circumstances that we have faced, to discourag...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c472 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, we have to try to be mindful of permanent damage to our reserves and of protecting o...
Lord Swire | 497 c472 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the fantastic work being done by the medics at Camp Bastion, where our wounded are ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for giving way so often. On the issue of the Territorial Army and the...
Bob Ainsworth | 497 c470 (Link to this contribution) I did the Territorials review, so I have become acquainted with a lot of people in the House who kno...
Nick Harvey | 497 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) I start by paying tribute to all those servicemen and women who have been serving our country in Afg...
Nick Harvey | 497 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) To the best of my knowledge, the Liberal Democrat policy on the two aircraft carriers is exactly the...
Nick Harvey | 497 c489 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and deserves congratulations on the campaign that he fought. ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 497 c488 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned the defence review and setting off on the wrong path. I thank him and t...
Nick Harvey | 497 c489-91 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his intervention and welcome what he says about 80 per cent. solutions, as ...
Ian Davidson | 497 c494 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend regret, as I do, that both the Conservative and Liberal parties appear unwilling...
Alison Seabeck | 497 c492-4 (Link to this contribution) The timing of this debate, in our first week back after returning from our constituencies, is signif...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am the honorary colonel of the Bristol university OTC, and I have just received a message from the...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) Yesterday the moving roll call read out by the Prime Minister of those who have died in Afghanistan ...
Alison Seabeck | 497 c495 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. I know that the whole House appreciates that, as a member of the Defence Com...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c495 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what my hon. Friend is saying. Is there not a danger of sea-blindness in the future def...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c496 (Link to this contribution) I must confess that my daughter is at Bristol university, and I shall instruct her to pay due respec...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c498 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I did get that impression of thoughtfulness. Given the importance of the issue of Afghanistan a...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c498 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that. When we were in the United States did he sense that the A...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c498 (Link to this contribution) Bullets and billets, yes. The result of that is that these are the only people who, as a result of G...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c497 (Link to this contribution) I agree that any party that aspires to be in government should follow all the recommendations on the...
Ian Davidson | 497 c497 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman seems to be in favour of long-term planning, and of decisions being made an...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c497 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly give way to an excellent member of the Defence Committee.
Ann Winterton | 497 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am not the commanding officer of anything, but I can assure my right hon. Friend that a member of ...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 497 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) My daughter concluded her message by asking me whether I think she should continue with it. I hope s...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c504 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. Each year, the record of the Ministry of Defence is agonisingly exposed to...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c503-4 (Link to this contribution) I really must get on; I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. Thirdly, I want to say someth...
Madeleine Moon | 497 c502 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c502 (Link to this contribution) May I start by paying my own tribute to the fallen, to their families, to the families of all servic...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c500 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed an assistance force, and the "I" in ISAF stands for "International". I am getting a sen...
Dai Havard | 497 c500-2 (Link to this contribution) The short answer is yes, and we continue to go around that discussion with some of our allies and th...
Dai Havard | 497 c498-500 (Link to this contribution) Like the right hon. Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), I was part of the delegation to...
Ian Davidson | 497 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) The difference as I understand it is that the job for which General Dannatt has been lobbying is dir...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c506 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Admiral West was in procurement, and it seems that the gentleman to whom my hon. Friend r...
Ian Davidson | 497 c506 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and I do not think that there is any doubt that the Opposition Front-Bench team lacks expert...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c506 (Link to this contribution) Given that an important part of the aircraft carriers is to be built in Appledore, the neighbouring ...
Nick Harvey | 497 c507 (Link to this contribution) The Government have placed the contract and, to the best of my knowledge, the Conservatives and the ...
Linda Gilroy | 497 c504 (Link to this contribution) I support what my hon. Friend is saying and hope he will be pleased to hear that Plymouth Argyle had...
Ian Davidson | 497 c504 (Link to this contribution) May I start by raising an issue that I think will get support in all parts of the House—support for ...
Julian Lewis | 497 c505 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can enlighten the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that if General Dannatt, a very able man indee...
Ian Davidson | 497 c505 (Link to this contribution) That is excellent. I hope that my colleagues, not only on the Front Benches but elsewhere, take the ...
Julian Brazier | 497 c471 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has been generous in giving way, and he has taken a long-term interest in res...
Alison Seabeck | 497 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Indeed, I do, and my electorate in Plymouth, Devonport...
Nick Harvey | 497 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, although one of the Afghan national army's strengths has been...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 497 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady forgive me for a moment? Secondly, on the Territorial Army, Lieutenant-General S...
Julian Brazier | 497 c521 (Link to this contribution) I cannot pay my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) enough of a tribute for the remarkab...
Paul Flynn | 497 c461 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State, who is being extremely generous in giving way. In...
Ian Davidson | 497 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) That is a hard question. I do not find it particularly surprising—it simply demonstrates the Liberal...
Lord Swire | 497 c523-6 (Link to this contribution) I join others in paying tribute to all those who have lost their lives recently in Afghanistan, not ...
Andrew Mackinlay | 497 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the moving letter that my hon. Friend read out, and it brought it home to me...
Subjects
Contracts Armed forces Defence Deployment Casualties Defence equipment Iraq Helicopters Pakistan Military aircraft Military alliances Rehabilitation Terrorism Training Reserve forces Reform Afghanistan NATO al Qaeda Taliban ISAF
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