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Pensions Bill

Secondary information

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

703 c255-307 

Session

2007-08

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Related items

Pensions Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes HL Bill 50-EN also published.
Wednesday, 23 April 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Noakes | 703 c346 (Link to this contribution) Doubtless officials will rue the day that two chartered accountants ended up dealing with this Bill....

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c343-4 (Link to this contribution) We have made clear, here and in the other place, the Government’s intention that the personal accoun...

Show all contributions (142)

Baroness Noakes | 703 c344-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response and I will read carefully what he has said. It seems that the...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c342 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will hear from me words that he does not often hear: I am entirely satisfied. I beg lea...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c341 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112Y: 112Y: Clause 66, page 33, line 1, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Bar...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c341-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a good question which I hope to be able to answer. The overriding function of the trustee corp...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112U: 112U: Schedule 1, page 62, line 8, after ““assistance”” insert ““on comm...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c333 (Link to this contribution) I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, said. The Minister has said that he will take away th...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c330 (Link to this contribution) On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment N...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c332 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised by that reply. I thought that the Minister would put on the record that they will hav...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c336-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the explanation of the Government’s approach. I want to read that carefully...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c340 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to listen to the Minister carefully. I have been critical on one or two occasions tonight o...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) I previously explained why it is important that potential conflicts of interest are taken into accou...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) It depends on the circumstances. I do not see this as being an unduly onerous or time-consuming even...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that explanation. Could he explain how the Secretary of State will satisfy ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) It certainly is not the latter. If the noble Baroness reads the totality of paragraph 2(2), it says,...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c325-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not getting any satisfactory answer from the Minister. It seems to me that he does not know how...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c326-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112M: 112M: Schedule 1, page 57, line 8, after ““authority”” insert ““or the P...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c327 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry—is the noble Baroness speaking to Amendment No. 112L with Amendment No. 112M?

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c306 (Link to this contribution) I can try to. I offer a distinction between someone whose job it is to chair the board, to ensure th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c324 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness has explained, the effect of these amendments would be to limit the Secretary ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c322 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112F: 112F: Schedule 1, page 56, line 14, at end insert ““, of which at least ...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c322-3 (Link to this contribution) First, I make it clear that we fully intend to respect the purpose and intention of Clause 242 of th...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c306-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, gives good advice. I do not think the Minister has understood what t...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c307 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House be now resumed. In moving the Motion, I suggest that the Committee stag...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c276 (Link to this contribution) It is a question of judgment whether the matter is for the Secretary of State or for the trustee cor...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c278 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the Minister’s reply but it did not really explain why there was a distincti...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c274 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for reminding me of that clause, which I was aware of, and I will take it into ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c278 (Link to this contribution) I actually said that we would expect to hear employers’ views through panels, which I welcome. I was...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c279-82 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 111: 111: Clause 61, page 31, line 12, at end insert ““and must provide that a...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c279 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by lea...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c282-3 (Link to this contribution) My purpose was to group my amendments with Amendment No. 112, that of the noble Baroness, Lady Green...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c283-5 (Link to this contribution) They then do not go into personal accounts and add to them; they go into another form of scheme. If ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) The issue of risk does not necessarily drive how to create an effective trustee corporation board. T...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c291-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank everyone who has spoken in this debate; the usual suspects plus one. It has been fascinating...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 703 c289-90 (Link to this contribution) I have listened very carefully, but I cannot pretend that I have understood every word of what has b...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 703 c288-9 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 11 of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. I am glad to be one of the usual susp...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c288 (Link to this contribution) Can transfers be covered by an order under subsections (1) or (3) of Clause 61? I ask that because t...

Baroness Greengross | 703 c286-8 (Link to this contribution) At this stage I will speak to Amendment No. 112 standing in my name and to the other amendments in t...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c286 (Link to this contribution) As to the advantages of putting pots of money into something like a personal account scheme, there a...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c299-300 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112C: 112C: Clause 61, page 31, line 26, leave out subsection (5) The noble B...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c298-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for the amendment, which gives me a chance to clarify the Government’s po...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c295 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness should think about how that will work in practice. Unless there is a need to know...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c294-5 (Link to this contribution) Like my noble friend the Minister, I am grateful for the number of people who have spoken today beca...

Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c255-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 109: 109: Clause 55, page 27, leave out lines 5 and 6 The noble Lord said: To...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c258 (Link to this contribution) I join the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in paying tribute to ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Turner for tabling the amendment and for providing an opportunity to di...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c260-1 (Link to this contribution) This clause is at the heart of the Bill. The Government have stated that they have an absolutely fir...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c260 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110A: 110A: Clause 58, page 29, line 32, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall”...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that the Minister has just said that the Government could implement Clause 3, which i...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c265-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110B: 110B: Clause 58, page 29, line 33, at end insert— ““(1A) A scheme must b...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c262 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for his support. I agree that what the Minister said is gobb...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c262 (Link to this contribution) If personal accounts were not to proceed—and that will simply not be the case, as they will proceed—...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c262 (Link to this contribution) It might have been gobbledegook to the noble Lord. The point that I am trying to make is that, if we...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for the amendment. I hope to satisfy both noble Lords as to why the Bill ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c267-9 (Link to this contribution) Before I deal with the amendment, I say to the noble Baroness that comments like, ““Honesty is not w...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c271-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for bringing forward the amendments, which relate to the auditing require...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c269 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the fact that I have had an invitation to meet Tim Jones and Paul Myners, and I look forwa...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has again referred to the little diagram in the document placed in the House of Commons...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c274 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for setting on record his reasons for drafting the Bill as it is. I ca...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c300 (Link to this contribution) Although the noble Baroness’s warnings about gobbling up all private sector saving in this country a...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c302 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make just a couple of points. The noble Baroness is taking an interesting position in ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c303 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to reflect on the noble Baroness’s comments on the provision. I do not think that we will...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c346 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c345 (Link to this contribution) I will try. I struggled a little and had some discussions with officials, which are still under way....

Baroness Noakes | 703 c342-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112Z: 112Z: Clause 66, page 33, line 7, leave out paragraph (b) The noble Bar...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c334-6 (Link to this contribution) There is an understandable interest in the way in which the personal accounts scheme will be finance...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c334 (Link to this contribution) I fear that these amendments will not work. I say that from bitter experience of having studied the ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c330-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112S: 112S: Schedule 1, page 59, line 8, at end insert— ““(1A) The trustee cor...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c333 (Link to this contribution) The wording is to ““establish a committee”” —in theory, that could be a committee of the whole board...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) It gives me great pleasure to respond to the noble Baroness’s no-brainer. The trustee corporation wi...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c341 (Link to this contribution) When I was doing public policy economics in the 1960s, ““taking one year with another”” was always a...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c341 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, the aim may never have been met, but it is a standard formulation in the public sector. I wa...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c337 (Link to this contribution) That will not take the noble Baroness long with her financial acumen.

Baroness Noakes | 703 c337 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is not getting away with any form of flattery because I am completely impervious to it....

Baroness Noakes | 703 c337-8 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112W: 112W: Schedule 1, page 62, line 14, leave out ““may”” and insert ““is re...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c338-40 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for these amendments, which give me the opportunity to explain our intent...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c341 (Link to this contribution) I, too, thank the Minister for that careful and considered response to my amendments. I will want to...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c329 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that the brief he has just read out was very much couched—and the code sugg...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c328-9 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1 includes provisions that deal with the period for which a person can be appointed to be a...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c328 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112Q: 112Q: Schedule 1, page 58, line 8, leave out sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c328 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that explanation. I was mystified by seeing the examples given in sub-parag...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c330 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could suggest to the noble Lord that if there has to be an absolute ban for the reasons so...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c329-30 (Link to this contribution) The problem with anything but an absolute ban is that it is difficult to see how you would put the c...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c330 (Link to this contribution) I see the point the Minister is making; that without the Secretary of State’s involvement beyond ini...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c330 (Link to this contribution) Without giving any indication, we would be happy to consider the points put forward tonight. I invit...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) I invite the Minister to read Schedule 1. It states: "““The Secretary of State and the corporation m...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) I might be, but I am asking if this is a reactive or a proactive process.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c325 (Link to this contribution) It might be both. It might be that from time to time the Secretary of State just needs to touch base...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c327 (Link to this contribution) I did not move Amendment No. 112L. This is Amendment No. 112M. Paragraph 2(6) of Schedule 1 deals w...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c306 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can offer the Minister a word of advice: when you are in a hole, stop digging.

Baroness Noakes | 703 c306 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for his support for ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c323 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. It is a pity that the Government had not worked out more of the...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c323-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112J: 112J: Schedule 1, page 56, line 21, leave out ““and, under paragraph (1)...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c276-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110G: 110G: Clause 60, page 31, line 6, leave out ““members’ panel”” and inser...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c275-6 (Link to this contribution) We anticipate that the membership of the personal accounts schemes will be very large, numbering in ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110EA: 110EA: Clause 60, page 31, line 4, leave out from ““by”” to end of line...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c278 (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed in the noble Baroness. In employer-based DC schemes, as well as trust-based DB sch...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c278 (Link to this contribution) I am puzzled at the noble Lord’s response, although I can understand where the noble Baroness is com...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c282 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness would let me speak to my amendments in this group. We could then deal wit...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c283 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. Why should they go out into the market? I can se...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 703 c285-6 (Link to this contribution) I received a lot of briefing from the TUC on Clause 61. I say at the outset that I agree with a grea...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c279 (Link to this contribution) We have not heard anything to date that would cause us to change our mind. However, if the amendment...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c292-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not see that we need to do that. The £3,600 figure has been around now for a while. I know it s...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c292 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will be aware that other figures have been talked about by his honourable friend in ano...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c290-1 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I, as the first man to speak in this important debate, can join the usual suspects....

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c288 (Link to this contribution) Without prejudicing my noble friend’s reply, even if they do I hope that the noble Baroness will res...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c299 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response and I thank other noble Lords for taking part in this interes...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c297 (Link to this contribution) I want to use this debate as a hook with which to raise an issue that I am worried about. It has bee...

Baroness Greengross | 703 c296 (Link to this contribution) had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 112: 112: Clause 61, page 31, line 21, lea...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c295-6 (Link to this contribution) I accept what the noble Baroness suggests but I find it extremely unlikely in relation to a personal...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c255 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c256 (Link to this contribution) In responding to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, I shall speak also to ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) The Government are being unduly suspicious. The Minister has just said that if an employee earning l...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c257 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 109A: 109A: Clause 55, page 27, leave out lines 11 and 12 and insert— ““( ) Th...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 703 c257 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110: 110: Clause 56, page 28, line 41, at end insert ““, or ( ) is a person ap...

Lord Skelmersdale | 703 c258 (Link to this contribution) Some of us were glad to be invited to the 25th anniversary party of TPAS last night. I agree that, w...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 703 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for those comments and the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Oakeshott...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c262 (Link to this contribution) The Minister keeps saying ““we will””. We, on these Benches, would be very happy if he moved an amen...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c269 (Link to this contribution) I was looking for information and commitment from the Government. Their agent is PADA; if it does no...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c267 (Link to this contribution) I am sympathetic to proposed new subsection (1B), which says that if there is to be a delay, the Sec...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c272-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110C: 110C: Clause 58, page 30, line 12, leave out subsection (12) The noble ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c273-4 (Link to this contribution) Clause 58 enables the Secretary of State to establish the scheme and provides that it will be a trus...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c269 (Link to this contribution) An outline of the approach is set down in the Library and the noble Baroness has referred to that. T...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c274 (Link to this contribution) It is fine if we discuss some of that detail in due course, but I draw the noble Baroness’s attentio...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c301 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, we have always made it clear that the personal accounts scheme should complement ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c301-2 (Link to this contribution) First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for his support for the amendment. I found the Minist...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c302-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has suggested that the Government could not raise the limits if that was found to be ...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c303 (Link to this contribution) I should have responded to that point. When we removed the power we recognised that it was open to t...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c303-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112D: 112D: Schedule 1, page 56, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) Appointments of...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c304-6 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1 sets out the provisions in relation to the non-departmental public body, the trustee corp...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 110BA: 110BA: Clause 58, page 30, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) A scheme establ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c333 (Link to this contribution) As I said, it is probable that we would go down the audit committee route. The members might want to...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c282 (Link to this contribution) I was somewhat surprised.

Baroness Noakes | 703 c296 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 112A: 112A: Clause 61, page 31, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) There shall be a...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c298 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is talking about stranded pots, which could be a particularly restricted, technic...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c272 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for what the noble Lord said. He has certainly gone further than the Minister wen...

Baroness Noakes | 703 c330 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, makes a very useful suggestion. I hope that the Minister will be pre...

Lord Tunnicliffe | 703 c277-8 (Link to this contribution) Consultation with both employers and members is essential to the success of the personal accounts sc...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 703 c304 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 112D. It is obviously sensible, although the ultimate power is with the Secr...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 703 c341 (Link to this contribution) It is a bit like ““from time to time””.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 703 c258 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a trustee of TPAS. I hesitated about whether to speak. Although in the cont...

Subjects

Conditions of employment Audit Advisory services Conflict of interests Government assistance Low incomes Public appointments Workplace pensions Pensions Non-departmental public bodies Unfair dismissal Pensions Advisory Service National employment savings trust scheme

Legislation

Pensions Bill 2007-08

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk