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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 4 July 2005, in the House of Lords.

Road Safety Bill [HL]

Road Safety Bill ([HL). Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 13-17 agreed to (clause 13 as amended). New clauses considered. (Part 1 of 2)

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
673 c424-86 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department for Transport
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Deposited Paper HDEP 2005/392
Thursday, 21 July 2005
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Hanham | 673 c435, (corrigendum) 730 (Link to this contribution) For the benefit of the Official Report, I meant without any protective clothes on. I beg leave to wi...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c429 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, speaks, I remind the Committee of the speech that was made durin...
Show all contributions (157)
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c430 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord   Bradshaw, was a little harsh in his condemnation of the technology. The part ...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c429-30 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds on his amendment, perhaps I may pick up on something that the Minist...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c432 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 47 and 48:"Page 18, line 27, leave out ““alcolock”” and insert ““alcohol””""Pa...
Earl Attlee | 673 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. It may be convenient to remind the C...
Lord Monson | 673 c433 (Link to this contribution) This is an extremely well meant amendment and I am interested in the statistics that the noble Baron...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 50:"After Clause 14, insert the following new clause—"    ““WEARING OF PROTECT...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c430-1 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is trying to lead me into the wilderness rather than along the path of grace by intr...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c430 (Link to this contribution) I find my noble friend’s explanation interesting. He is saying not only that the equipment can ident...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c431 (Link to this contribution) I hear the noble Baroness, and I hope that she will take me at face value. The intention is to get t...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c431 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to be trying. It is correct that Clause 14(1)(a) refers to ““the end of 2010””, and that ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c426-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken in this short debate. I am grateful to...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c426 (Link to this contribution) From the criminal justice point of view, particularly during the experimental period, if the public ...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c426 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the Minister wishes to move his amendments in this group before I speak to our...
Viscount Simon | 673 c426 (Link to this contribution) It has probably been considered already but I have a suggestion to overcome this potential problem—t...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend clarify how the alcolock works? The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has suggested that ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c425 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 45:"Page 15, line 31, leave out ““17”” and insert ““18””" The noble Earl said: ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c438 (Link to this contribution) I have rather more sympathy for the amendment, but I am concerned about the need for a competitive m...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c439 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl referred to a rather high cost for marking the sides of an HGV. Will he give some imp...
Earl Attlee | 673 c438-9 (Link to this contribution) I would not go so far as making it a requirement for all vehicles, but would suggest that it applies...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c439 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this short but useful debate. I understand t...
Earl Attlee | 673 c439 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately I have come to the Committee ill prepared, but suffice it to say that it is enough to ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c440 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I can confirm that powers exist by means of regulation through a statutory instrument under the...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness confirm that powers exist, if required, for the Government to require it to ...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c440 (Link to this contribution) I was interested to hear what the noble Baroness said, and I hope that the Government will consider ...
Viscount Simon | 673 c440 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend and other Members of the Committee who have taken part in this short debate....
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c434 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that, in my experience, my delivery lorry driving stepson wears one of these vests all...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c434 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to hear that the cars of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, break down so often. Perhaps it is ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) I always carry a high visibility jacket in my vehicle because I regularly need it. I do not dispute ...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c435 (Link to this contribution) What does the noble Baroness mean by the changing of tyres by people ““with nothing on at all””?
Baroness Hanham | 673 c435 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and I note her comments. There is no doubt that the pr...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for taking part in this debate. While I understand the noble Baroness’ ...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c438 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment but remind the Committee that some of the dodgiest trailers are not operated...
Earl of Dundee | 673 c438 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Hanningfield. As he said, research indicates ...
Viscount Simon | 673 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 51, Amendment No. 52:"Line 8, leave out from ““to”” to end o...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c443 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. She says that the Government will bring forward an amending reg...
Viscount Simon | 673 c443 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 57:"Page 20, line 41, leave out ““““2–6”” and insert ““““3–6””" The noble Visco...
Earl of Dundee | 673 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) In supporting the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, on Amendment No. 57, I should like to address Amendmen...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 673 c444-5 (Link to this contribution) I support both the previous speakers, and remind the House that I am the President of RoSPA, part of...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c445 (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment No.   58 and Amendment No. 60 in this group, which are similar to ones the o...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c440-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 53:"After Clause 14, insert the following new clause—"    ““Cycle lights    A ...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c441 (Link to this contribution) This is the third of the   visibility amendments and perhaps not the strongest of the three. I go al...
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes | 673 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) I very much support the amendment because it is about standardisation and ease of enforcement. Both ...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c442 (Link to this contribution) As a regular cyclist, I very much support the amendment. I use a fixed and a flashing light, front a...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) I am about to say almost that. Common sense, as the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, implored on us, i...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c448 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will recognise that we are involved in consultation at this time, which is consistent...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, I take what he says about the detail being in secondary legislatio...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c447-8 (Link to this contribution) I too am grateful that the point of detail has been cleared up to the satisfaction of the Committee....
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c448 (Link to this contribution) This matter is going out to consultation. We do not have the secondary legislation so we have no ide...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that I am a member of the Thames Valley Police Authority. I have discussed wi...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to Amendments Nos. 57 and 59, and I remind the Committee that I am president of ...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c447 (Link to this contribution) Then I am most grateful for that. I was getting just a bit muddled between his use of the words velo...
Lord Howie of Troon | 673 c447 (Link to this contribution) It is not actually speed that causes the problem; it is impact. What noble Lords need to bear in min...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c447 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether my noble friend is reinforcing my argument.
Viscount Simon | 673 c450 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for his reply, particularly regarding the consultation that is taking place....
Earl Attlee | 673 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 62:"Page 21, line 8, leave out ““detection”” and insert ““jamming””" The noble ...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to Amendment No.   66, which the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, kindly discussed very adeq...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) Of course, Parliament must have a considerable say in holding the Government to account—that goes wi...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c450 (Link to this contribution) It will not go through without the approval of both Houses.
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c450 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his reply to my two amendments in the group. There is no doubt that we sh...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c449 (Link to this contribution) In replying to the noble Lord, Lord   Berkeley, will the Minister reflect on the fact that it is nor...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c449 (Link to this contribution) Of course, that is entirely right. I am not seeking to contradict that point. It is the responsibili...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c453 (Link to this contribution) I may have asked this question at Second Reading, but I do not think that I got an answer. Will any ...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c452 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that you need evidence. Cameras are moved around from place to place according to the se...
Lord Monson | 673 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, is right in saying that it is extremely difficult to drive at 30   mile...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c452 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I do not agree with the amendments ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c452 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that the boxes do not carry cameras. Why not just put the decoy device in them?
Earl Ferrers | 673 c454 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister could help me, because I am not sure what is and what is not proposed to be leg...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, is right to say that slowing down to obey ...
Viscount Simon | 673 c453 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, combined two things: an alert driver and a warning device. They are inc...
Lord Howie of Troon | 673 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) The other day, I was walking home from Golders Green Tube station towards my home in Temple Fortune ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 673 c453 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to support Amendment No. 66 moved by my noble friend Lord Berkeley. The Safer Streets...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c482 (Link to this contribution) Tesco operates one of the best fleets of lorries in the country, which is commonly acknowledged in t...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c482 (Link to this contribution) I am becoming very concerned that this discussion on my amendment is not the discussion which I thou...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c482 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned Tesco but I gave no statistics.
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c482-3 (Link to this contribution) That may be so but if the noble Baroness reads the road haulage press she must be aware of the press...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c482 (Link to this contribution) This is another amendment with which we have very little sympathy. The statistics quoted by the nobl...
Earl Attlee | 673 c481 (Link to this contribution) This is a different matter from the previous amendment. If my noble friend had not tabled the amendm...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) This is another amendment that seems to argue that it is safer to go faster. We have no   statistics...
Earl Attlee | 673 c485 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely disappointed with the response from all noble Lords to the amendment. I suggested tha...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the intervention of my noble friend Lord Attlee. He knows far more about heavy goo...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c486 (Link to this contribution) I think that this is a convenient moment to break. I suggest that the Committee does not recommence ...
Earl of Erroll | 673 c484 (Link to this contribution) It is impossible for a lorry travelling at 40 miles per hour to follow a car travelling at 60 miles ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c484 (Link to this contribution) I will think about that in the fullness of time.
Earl Attlee | 673 c484 (Link to this contribution) Following on from that argument, why is the noble Baroness content for an HGV to travel at 50 miles ...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) We are talking about single carriageways. We are talking about a car stopping in an emergency when t...
Earl Attlee | 673 c473 (Link to this contribution) I agree with where my noble friend is coming from. The fact is that the police accept 80 miles per h...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) This proposal is, no doubt, quite tempting. Superficially, it could certainly be popular. There is a...
Earl of Dundee | 673 c473 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the effect of my noble friend’s amendment would be to increase the frequency and seve...
Lord Cobbold | 673 c473 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support this amendment. It seems to me to be a matter of common sense, and puts a little ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c471 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, especially the Minister. It is ...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c471-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74:"After Clause 17, insert the following new clause—"    ““MOTORWAYS: MAXIMUM...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c471 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for what he said. Does he agree that Section 87 of the Road Traffic...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c471 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my noble friend says. I want to emphasise to him that the responsible operation of these...
Lord Monson | 673 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, does he agree that testing a new police car does not constitute respo...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c471 (Link to this contribution) Drivers have to be trained— and there will of course be circumstances in which they can be trained—t...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for making that point, and to the noble Lord, Lord Bra...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c479 (Link to this contribution) No, the technology is in place and the variable limit is enforced there. That is the distinction bet...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed by the Minister’s answer because I have found that, on this Bill, he and I agree w...
Baroness Hanham | 673 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75:"After Clause 17, insert the following new clause—"    ““SPEED LIMITS FOR V...
Viscount Goschen | 673 c475-6 (Link to this contribution) The fact is that the current speed limit of 70 miles an hour is in disrepute because it is so widely...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c476 (Link to this contribution) I do not support the amendment for many reasons. First, the throughput of motorways is very much det...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c476-9 (Link to this contribution) We have had another interesting and lively debate and one that could have been predicted. The argume...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c479 (Link to this contribution) I asked the Minister—and I will repeat the question—whether, when that variable limit comes up, you ...
Viscount Simon | 673 c474 (Link to this contribution) The variable speed limits have a lot to recommend them in controlling traffic flow, etc, and that is...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 673 c475 (Link to this contribution) I would be very surprised if my noble friend, when he replies, is able to say that there is any publ...
Viscount Simon | 673 c462 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to the amendment and I must say that the noble Earl has said exactly what I was ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c461 (Link to this contribution) I am finding the debate extremely useful. I am grateful to the Minister for giving us the Government...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of their nomenclature, it is a question of their purpose. They are safety camer...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c463 (Link to this contribution) I am not in favour of this amendment. If there is a need for a reduced speed limit for any reason, t...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c463 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I am the only noble Lord present who does not know the   precise definition of a re...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I can match those last two short contributions, but I will do my best. My name is...
Earl Attlee | 673 c462 (Link to this contribution) I fear that I cannot support my noble friend, for the reasons that I am confident the Minister will ...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c460 (Link to this contribution) The Minister just made a point about general principles, which is what I should like to ask him abou...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 673 c459 (Link to this contribution) I press further: what my noble friend is saying is that, if the information is GPS-based, it is perm...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) In due course. We must be specific about the nature of the equipment. We are not at that stage on th...
Earl Attlee | 673 c465 (Link to this contribution) Further to the Minister’s response to the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, on what constitutes a ““r...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) I accept the noble Earl’s point. I simply reiterate the reference to single carriageway restricted r...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c466-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 71 and 81. Although I support the general tone of the noble Earl’s ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c466 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 68:"Page 22, leave out lines 25 to 29 and insert—" ““(a)   it is being used fo...
Baroness Masham of Ilton | 673 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) On the issue of police cars going so fast, the daughter of one of our local general practitioners in...
Lord Monson | 673 c468 (Link to this contribution) I support the broad thrust of these amendments. Your Lordships will have read in the past few weeks ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c469 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, makes an extremely important point, but my amendment seeks to separat...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c469 (Link to this contribution) I must intervene on that last point because the accident to which the noble Baroness referred was at...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c463 (Link to this contribution) From the Conservative Front Bench I would like to say that we do not support the amendment tabled by...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c463-5 (Link to this contribution) We have had a variety of views in   our relatively short debate this afternoon. The Government’s roa...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c456 (Link to this contribution) There is no limit to the possibilities of technology in informing drivers. I am   chastened by the r...
Earl Attlee | 673 c456 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. We could go down his route but say, ““You can have a GPS de...
Lord Berkeley | 673 c456 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend says that the cameras are there to warn people of a changing circumstance. That may ...
Earl Attlee | 673 c455 (Link to this contribution) The Committee should be aware that my argument is that we need to use more technology to improve com...
Lord Brett | 673 c455 (Link to this contribution) My experience is different from that of the noble Earl. I travel on the A2 to Bexleyheath, on which ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I do not know the nature of the device. If the device is solely related to the information on t...
Lord Campbell-Savours | 673 c458 (Link to this contribution) Can we go back to the equipment referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers? That equipment would de...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c459 (Link to this contribution) No, I sought to identify it as a benign device, even if it beeped many times. It gives effective and...
Earl Ferrers | 673 c459 (Link to this contribution) I am deeply grateful to the Minister for commending me on anything at all; I merely purchased someth...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c458 (Link to this contribution) The reason why I have not covered it is that various members of the Committee intercede as I am deve...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c458 (Link to this contribution) We are not contemplating compensation. Individuals may purchase equipment that subsequently contrave...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c458 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister tell us whether any compensation will be paid, which was the other half of my ques...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 673 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) Sitting here listening, I have learnt quite a bit about these little devices that go ““bleep””, such...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c457 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to that. My noble friend has pre-empted the third part of my argument. I have indicated...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 673 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) Sometimes we are told that safety cameras are placed at accident black spots. Therefore I find it di...
Earl Attlee | 673 c458 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point, I hope that the Minister can respond fully to Amendment No. 76, which was abo...
Lord Hanningfield | 673 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) Lord Hanningfield moved Amendment No. 51: After Clause 14, insert the following new clause— "RE...
Earl of Erroll | 673 c483 (Link to this contribution) I am amazed at the notion that all these ancient lorries are trundling along our roads, or certainly...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 673 c474-5 (Link to this contribution) I would like to support the amendment, though I would also like to ask a couple of questions in view...
Baroness Crawley | 673 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) Once again consensus has not broken out. The intent of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Han...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) This has been a fascinating debate, which has led us through some technical areas, but some clear pr...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 673 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...
Lord Howie of Troon | 673 c449 (Link to this contribution) Could we think a little bit about secondary legislation? Secondary legislation is a well known hidey...
Earl of Dundee | 673 c466 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her clear recognition of the fact that 20 mph zones have already proved the...
Lord Bradshaw | 673 c425 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to Amendment No. 46 because it appears that the presence of an alcohol lock in a...
Earl of Dundee | 673 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 67:"After Clause 16, insert the following new clause—"    ““DEFAULT SPEED LIMI...
Subjects
Alcoholic drinks Breathalysers Cars Cameras Bicycles Licensing Fixed penalties Exemptions Driving under influence Large goods vehicles Police Protective clothing Lighting Motorways Safety Safety measures Roads Road signs and markings Speed limits Road traffic offences
Legislation
Road Safety Bill (HL) 2005-06
Link
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