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Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bill on Monday, 5 December 2005, in the House of Lords.

Terrorism Bill

Terrorism Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Clause 1 under consideration

Secondary information

Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
676 c421-69,485-504 
Session
2005-06
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Proceeding contributions
Lord Goodhart | 676 c502-4 (Link to this contribution) I should start by apologising to the Minister for the fact that, as a result of the announcement at ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c504 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Show all contributions (159)
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c501-2 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may turn for a moment to Clause 2(9). I must say how much I respect the Minister’s immense...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c502 (Link to this contribution) I endorse what the noble Baroness has just said. May I ask a question of my noble friend, which she ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) I will then restrict my comments to Clause 1(7). We do not think that those two are incompatible and...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c500 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that of Clause 2(9); I was referring only to Clause 1(7).
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c500 (Link to this contribution) I am going to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, because we do not believe that Clause 1(7) o...
Lord Geddes | 676 c499 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 13, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to I cannot call A...
Lord Geddes | 676 c499 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 14, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to I cannot call A...
Lord Geddes | 676 c499 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 19, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to I cannot call A...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c499 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 20:"Page 2, line 30, leave out ““and”” and insert ““or””" The noble Lord said: ...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 676 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) I invite the Minister—who has been courtesy itself—to reflect on a point she made a few moments ago....
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c498 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble and learned Lord says in relation to that. I am confident that there are no ci...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. She referred to Clause 21, to which we will come in du...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 676 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to add to the excellent speeches that we have just heard, with all of which I agree in...
Lord Judd | 676 c440-1 (Link to this contribution) Reference has been made to the work of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The evidence that we rec...
Bishop of Oxford | 676 c441 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may follow the noble Lord. It seems to me that however tight the present legal definition ...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c441 (Link to this contribution) Is it not true that you could have an insurrection caused by a non-uniformed civilian rebellion usin...
Baroness Park of Monmouth | 676 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) As a non-lawyer, perhaps I may ask for some clarification. I agree entirely with what has been said....
Lord Kingsland | 676 c442 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to enter into this aspect of the debate while on this group of amendments because I know ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c443-5 (Link to this contribution) Can I respond to a number of those points? I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Slynn, for the p...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness speak to that later, because it applies to Clause 2? I apologise for its mis...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 676 c446 (Link to this contribution) Now that the noble Baroness has conceded that there is to be a subjective test and it will be a ques...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c446 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord knows, encouragement can be direct and indirect; incitement is only direct—you dir...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c446 (Link to this contribution) It is clear that we already have legal authority to prosecute for incitement in the general context ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) ““Encouragement”” can be broader than incitement. I am sure that the noble Lord is thinking of the i...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that remark, although I am not rising to reply to it. Would the Minister cons...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) How could the noble Lord deprive us of such a pleasure?
Lord Kingsland | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) I should, perhaps, apologise for being here at all.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) I accept the apology. I thought that the noble Lord apologised for the amendment being in the group ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) In my earlier comments I hoped to encourage those issues to be taken out, because we will have a con...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c447 (Link to this contribution) I see what the noble Earl is directing his mind to. It is not entirely apposite because directly inc...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) Would it be fair to say that encouragement is saying, ““X is a good thing””, and incitement is sayin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) I find myself once again in the unusual position where the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is suggesting ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c449 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 5:"Page 1, line 11, leave out ““on his behalf””" The noble Lord said: My Lords,...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 676 c450 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that if Amendment No. 6 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 7 to 9 bec...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c450 (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches accept the necessity for some legislation and where we believe that there is suc...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c447 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right, to the extent, of course, that one has to incite a person to commit a spec...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support which my amendments have received, not only from my noble friends, but...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c447-8 (Link to this contribution) We have been talking about encouragement, but I remind noble Lords that the phrase used in Clause 1(...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c446 (Link to this contribution) It is a narrow line and might cause a number of people to say that we should not have a subjective b...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Goodhart in this amendment. Reference has been made to the case of Caldwel...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6:"Page 1, line 13, leave out from ““(1)”” to end of line 18." The noble Lord s...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c458 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness accept that we would comply with our international obligations under Article...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) First, their intent has either to be to encourage the commission of those acts of terror, or to make...
Bishop of Oxford | 676 c457 (Link to this contribution) : Can the Minister help me on the last point before she moves on? Suppose that a person supports a p...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c455-7 (Link to this contribution) Of course I understand the purport of the opposition of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and ...
Lord Ahmed | 676 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) May I also add that during the elections, and even after the elections, many Members from the other ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c458 (Link to this contribution) As I have tried to make plain, we believe the two parts are justified. We think it is right that the...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c459 (Link to this contribution) Of course there are some very complex and difficult questions in relation to determining when terror...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c459 (Link to this contribution) I want to add one more example to the Minister’s interesting explanation. When there is a constituti...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c460 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Earl says about muddle and some powerful speeches outlined why, regrettably, t...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) There is nothing new in this. The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by a gentleman who was ...
Lord Monson | 676 c461 (Link to this contribution) The Minister keeps talking about people reckless as to whether their words would encourage terrorism...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those who have raised a number of interesting issues in this long and serious debat...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c461 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes the case for an objective test, which the Government would have preferred. I un...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c463 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, and want to make a simple point. I have already quoted from another judgmen...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c462 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. *8:"Page 1, line 14, at end insert ““in the circumstances known to, or foreseen ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c487 (Link to this contribution) My name is also on this amendment and I would like to give strong support to the noble and learned L...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) I would like to glorify the Spaniards who helped the Duke of Wellington evict the French from the Pe...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c485-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10:"Page 2, line 1, leave out subsection (4)." The noble and learned Lord said:...
Lord Geddes | 676 c487 (Link to this contribution) Before calling Amendment No. 10, I should have advised the Committee that if it is not agreed to I w...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c468 (Link to this contribution) No. It would be clear from the circumstances that the ordinary, average bookseller one has in mind w...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c468 (Link to this contribution) I understand that absolutely, and I have read in the newspapers of anecdotal evidence that certain s...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c469 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9:"Page 1, line 15, leave out subsection (3)." On Question, amendment agreed to...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 676 c469 (Link to this contribution) This may be an appropriate moment to resume the House in order to take the Statement on the local go...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) It really does not matter what the customer looks like. What will matter is whether the bookseller s...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c469 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments is concerned with one issue only, and that is objective recklessness in Cla...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c467 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as chairman of the British Library. I reflect with some pleasure on what the M...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall take this slowly so that we may all follow it together. First, all those who collate informa...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c468 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that a bookseller who has been selling books on terrorism would be let off if he says...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c468 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it would unless he was unaware of the content of the publications. If a librarian or ...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c468 (Link to this contribution) How is a bookseller to know, when someone walks into his bookshop, whether the bloke is a terrorist,...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c463-5 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of clarity, we do not intend to move government amendments to Clause 1(2)(b); there is ...
Lord Elton | 676 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) To make it easier for amateurs like myself, will the Minister say whether she means that the defence...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c466 (Link to this contribution) Yes, because at the moment Clause 2 is restricted to a narrow group. We intend, through the amendmen...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c466 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may press the Minister a little further, because what she said is obviously of great inter...
Lord Ahmed | 676 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for pursuing this a little further, but what about the bookshop that actually sells book...
Lord Elton | 676 c495 (Link to this contribution) Where do the existing circumstances actually have to exist? We have discovered that the people who m...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c495 (Link to this contribution) It would be the circumstances that exist at the time when the statement is made.
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c494 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I, at least, am one person in this Chamber who finds a st...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) We come back to context. Again and again, we say that one has to look at the issues of context and c...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c493 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I was not referring to the report at all. I was referring...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble and learned Lord for that concession. It is important because as the noble and lea...
Lord Judd | 676 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) That is an argument from which I am sure that none of us would dissent. The point is that, at that s...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c493 (Link to this contribution) Throughout our debate, I have tried to make clear that we look at the terms, the context and the con...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c492 (Link to this contribution) Has anyone read the terms of the contract?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c492 (Link to this contribution) I am given to understand that, in some households, people read nothing else. The issues with which ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c492 (Link to this contribution) First, I can tell the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that I shall certainly make sure that my noble and le...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c492 (Link to this contribution) I did not mean it as a criticism of the noble Baroness. She really does her best and it is totally u...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c492 (Link to this contribution) I shall soldier on regardless doing my incompetent best. The amendments provide an opportunity to r...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 676 c490 (Link to this contribution) Earlier in our proceedings, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, asked who might not be a member of the publ...
Lord Hylton | 676 c490 (Link to this contribution) In drafting the clause, did the Government take any thought at all for the circumstances of Northern...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) I want to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, in his analysis. Often, the simplest thing...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) I find myself in agreement with everything everyone has said so far in the debate. Indeed, I hope th...
Lord Ahmed | 676 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) I too support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. When they made this commitment, the...
Lord Judd | 676 c489 (Link to this contribution) When the noble Earl put forward his list of candidates for glorification, I was a little disappointe...
Lord Elton | 676 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) It is worth mentioning that the reason Nelson Mandela is absolutely admirable is not because he is a...
Lord Elton | 676 c495 (Link to this contribution) I am asking not about time but about place.
Lord Ahmed | 676 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend detail what evidence the Government have of encouragement among those involved i...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c495 (Link to this contribution) We have made it clear that glorification can have a very wide application. That has been made clear ...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c497 (Link to this contribution) I want to follow up the suggestion that it is not retrospective. Clearly it is not retrospective in ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will know that I am not entitled to rely on information in relation to any current c...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c497 (Link to this contribution) Only if it could be related to the then current circumstances—
Earl of Onslow | 676 c497 (Link to this contribution) If someone is in rebellion and you say, ““Remember what the Spaniards did in 1814 and remember what ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c497 (Link to this contribution) Can I finish the sentence? I am more than happy to sit down, but if I can just finish one sentence a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c497 (Link to this contribution) It certainly is a fact that the IRA was influenced by the events of 1797 and Wolfe Tone and people o...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4:"Page 1, line 6, leave out ““a direct or indirect”” and insert ““an””" The no...
Lord Ahmed | 676 c439 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I am deeply worried about the defin...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c438-9 (Link to this contribution) I see another difficulty. Let us assume that a student wishes to discuss or to write an historical e...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c436 (Link to this contribution) On this occasion, I suppose that I can be accused of arguing from a point of view that differs from ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) The whole point, as I have tried to make clear—including in relation to ““members of the public””—is...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c436 (Link to this contribution) As I said, this was intended as a probing amendment. We have had a useful short debate which has to ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c436 (Link to this contribution) A person could, of course, be a member of the public who could be affected thereby. The whole purpos...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c435 (Link to this contribution) I cannot think of one, so I will get back to the noble Lord if I can.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c435 (Link to this contribution) Does ““members of the public”” include, for example, students within a small seminar? Suppose a tuto...
Lord Elton | 676 c435 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister spare a moment to resolve a question I have often asked myself? What are the circu...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c432 (Link to this contribution) Would the extension of the defence to which the Minister referred in Clause 1—extending the provisio...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c432 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned that the Minister should explain this a little further. As I understand it, the conce...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c432 (Link to this contribution) To add to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, said, in the light of the significant conces...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c435 (Link to this contribution) The whole purpose of this part of the Bill is to enable us to ratify the Council of Europe Conventio...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3:"Page 1, line 5, leave out ““members of the public”” and insert ““persons””" ...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) When I moved the amendment I think I said that it was a probing amendment. I realise now that it was...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c433 (Link to this contribution) We accept that the Minister has moved a long way and we are grateful to her for the way in which she...
Lord Ackner | 676 c432 (Link to this contribution) I support what has just been said. Unless there is a suggestion that the burden could be treated as ...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) This is a very important point that I have only just understood. I get the impression from the Minis...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 676 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) The complexity of this matter must already be very clear. It is certainly clear to me. I do not pret...
Lord Waddington | 676 c427 (Link to this contribution) I am wondering whether the Government’s concern about the amendment moved from these Benches may not...
Lord Kingsland | 676 c428 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom, introduced this group of amendments and it is...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c431 (Link to this contribution) This is a significant concession, but are the Government prepared to take it one step further and ma...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c429-31 (Link to this contribution) In response to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Elton, I say that I do not think that there wi...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c431 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to come back on that, but I understand that as a general rule when a specific defence is ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c431 (Link to this contribution) We believe that the burden lies with the prosecution—appropriately, under the new subjective test—an...
Lord Ahmed | 676 c425 (Link to this contribution) Are statements from religious scripture excluded? For example, an imam might be speaking in relation...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c425 (Link to this contribution) If someone makes a statement that has no effect on the audience, it does not matter if they make the...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 676 c425 (Link to this contribution) I follow the Minister’s argument and I am in some sympathy with it. But can she deal precisely with ...
Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 676 c425 (Link to this contribution) These are very much lawyers’ matters and I am no lawyer. I think I understood what the noble Barones...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 676 c423 (Link to this contribution) I rise briefly to speak in support of the amendments just referred to by my noble friend Lord Goodha...
Lord Judd | 676 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) I should put on record at this stage—because do doubt it will come up repeatedly during our delibera...
Lord Eatwell | 676 c426 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in her remarks the Minister made a heavy hint that she was going to consider later the con...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 676 c426 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Government on thinking again on the definition of ““recklessness””. I look forwar...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c421 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved acc...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 676 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1:"Page 1, line 5, leave out from ““statement”” to ““as”” in line 6 and insert “...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 676 c422 (Link to this contribution) I point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendments Nos. 2 or 3.
Lord Kingsland | 676 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 2, 7, 12, 18 and 34 in the same line. We share the concerns of th...
Lord Goodhart | 676 c423 (Link to this contribution) My name is attached to the amendments just spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. There is a g...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c445 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying the point. I was in my place for her earlier interventi...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 676 c447 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am not a lawyer and have listened closely to what has been said. Is not an indirect encourag...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 676 c451-4 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. I am afraid that the concession that the Minister has offered on subsectio...
Baroness Williams of Crosby | 676 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend Lord Goodhart in this amendment, to which I have added my name be...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c431 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that there is any intention for us to change this in the way that the noble Lord,...
Earl of Onslow | 676 c460 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Government for going as far as they are. However, we are trying to get seven-eighths per...
Lord Lucas | 676 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness wants us to postpone argument on these amendments on the basis of unspecified pro...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c423-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand the concerns expressed by all noble Lords, but I do not think that their anxiety is mer...
Lord Slynn of Hadley | 676 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) May I support what has just been said? If the intention, as everyone appears to agree, is to make th...
Lord Judd | 676 c458 (Link to this contribution) Could I raise with my noble friend the difficulty some of us have with her argument? Much of her arg...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 676 c432-3 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly think about the noble Baroness’s question, although I do not think that it could. T...
Lord Elton | 676 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron, will not think of terminating this stage of th...
Subjects
Disclosure of information Common law Evidence Incitement Libraries Internet Prosecutions Publications Terrorism Research Speeches Academic freedom Encouragement of terrorism
Legislation
Terrorism Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk